All Blacks 2023
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@Steve said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Crucial said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Steve said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Crucial said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
There are still some big games to come and the likes of Goodhue, Heem, Ennor, LF could either confirm or deny their own destiny.
Without injury the only spot available would be a Utility one, a midfield/wing.J.Barrett, Ioane, Proctor, Heem, ALB.
Havili & Ennor shouldn't be in the conversation.
Havili and ALB will be there because Foster.....Dont see Heem and Proctor getting a look in.
He won't roll those dice.
Are we seriously questioning ALB? Highly experienced and proven at both 12 and 13 in tests. Probably reads defence better than any of the candidates.
He won’t let us down. But he won’t win us the cup either. Just too Vanilla for me. Opposition D won’t worry about him at all.
Rieko for all his faults gives them kittens. He’s not a centres arsehole but his pace is an equaliser.
ALB is a selection when you go out there to not lose. But at some point we need to go out and WIN it.
Himself and Goodhue together still turns my stomach.
Thing is, though - you don't need 15 excitement machines to win a World Cup. You need a lot of guys who will do their job and nullify the opposition. When you start "rolling the dice", you quickly find the flawed guys who won't do their job and will lose us the Cup.
Here's our 2011 squad. A lot of guys who were middle-of-the-road ABs and actually pretty short on game-breakers and excitement machines.
https://www.allblacks.com/news/remembering-the-all-blacks-2011-rugby-world-cup-squad/
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@Steve said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Crucial said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Steve said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Crucial said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
There are still some big games to come and the likes of Goodhue, Heem, Ennor, LF could either confirm or deny their own destiny.
Without injury the only spot available would be a Utility one, a midfield/wing.J.Barrett, Ioane, Proctor, Heem, ALB.
Havili & Ennor shouldn't be in the conversation.
Havili and ALB will be there because Foster.....Dont see Heem and Proctor getting a look in.
He won't roll those dice.
Are we seriously questioning ALB? Highly experienced and proven at both 12 and 13 in tests. Probably reads defence better than any of the candidates.
He won’t let us down. But he won’t win us the cup either. Just too Vanilla for me. Opposition D won’t worry about him at all.
Rieko for all his faults gives them kittens. He’s not a centres arsehole but his pace is an equaliser.
ALB is a selection when you go out there to not lose. But at some point we need to go out and WIN it.
Himself and Goodhue together still turns my stomach.
I get the 'all in' approach but we are talking about a RWC Squad here. By your logic Conrad Smith wouldn't have won two of them.
For starters he provides bench versatility.
I get that he may not be a Nonu type 12 but neither are any of the other options. At 13 we are very light on experience.
Also think you are vastly under-raing his abilities -
@Chris-B the difference...and i admit this is vibe...but it felt like the core of that team was more established, i feel there was less debate on the best 15 or maybe 12-13 of the 15...where as it feels like currently we have 6-7 locked in and maybe another couple who will start but we're not sure which position
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yep. i reckon the 23 for the knockouts is basically penned in. Fans may disagree, but the ABs team is settled
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you're probably right, it might just be the fans that are still debating things like 6, 10 and both wings...and the flow on from those, if SB isn't 6 then is he a lock? if RI was on the wing who is 13? if BB is 10 then who is 15?
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@Kiwiwomble I'm actually more conservative than Fozzie - there might be one or two changes - but, a dozen of that team are pretty clear when you start counting things up.
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and i probably feel there is less certainty just because i would make different selections to what fozzie is almost certainly going to do...but thats me and not him
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
Here's our 2011 squad. A lot of guys who were middle-of-the-road ABs and actually pretty short on game-breakers and excitement machines.
what what what? Some of the greatest ever ABs? Who would definitely not challenge the current ABs for a position in their prime? Maybe Thomson? Ice? The halfbacks? That is a really damn fine team!
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
and i probably feel there is less certainty just because i would make different selections to what fozzie is almost certainly going to do...but thats me and not him
None of this is a surprise though. Foster always stated his season plans leading toward this year. There was Covid disruption and unavailability which derailed things a bit but generally there was an identification period and a consolidation period. There's always room for a bolter and for injury related changes but overall the plans have been followed.
It took longer to find the Front Row than expected, which some loyalty decisions to give original choices more chance. 6 has been a problem for a long time but SB looks to have that transition complete now. Cane had injury setbacks that resulted in a form slump but is firing again.
There's a role for DMac in the squad, and potentially as a gamebreaker on the bench.
I'm still not convinced that we have a class midfield combo (emphasis on combo) but they are the best options.
Clarke is still a concern, especially on defence, but his kick chase is the best in the team which could be a tactical requirement.Hopefully enough encouragement is given to the likes of Stevenson, Narawa, Fakatava, Roigard etc that they take their spots in the next cycle.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
Here's our 2011 squad. A lot of guys who were middle-of-the-road ABs and actually pretty short on game-breakers and excitement machines.
what what what? Some of the greatest ever ABs? Who would definitely not challenge the current ABs for a position in their prime? Maybe Thomson? Ice? The halfbacks? That is a really damn fine team!
Challenge, yes. Lose, yes
Flynn (would be battling with Coles and Aumua for 3rd hooker)
Ali Williams (Whitelock, BBBR and SB all better. Maybe over Vai'i)
Ben Franks (yeah, nah. Not for the modern prop role)
Thomson (hanging on the fringes with Blackadder)
Cowan (nope)
Ellis (nope)
Slade (nope)
Guildford (nope)
Toeava (possibly still a valuable utility but given the crossover talents we have maybe not required) -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
Here's our 2011 squad. A lot of guys who were middle-of-the-road ABs and actually pretty short on game-breakers and excitement machines.
what what what? Some of the greatest ever ABs? Who would definitely not challenge the current ABs for a position in their prime? Maybe Thomson? Ice? The halfbacks? That is a really damn fine team!
The sum was greater than the parts IMO.
You know how many tries we scored in the three play-off games that year?
Four.
And they were scored by Woodcock, Nonu, Read and Thorn.
Nonu was a gamebreaker. Read probably was too in those days - but, was playing his first game back from injury vs the Argies.
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Flynn (would be battling with Coles and Aumua for 3rd hooker) Prime form Flynn higher than these two currently IMO
Ali Williams (Whitelock, BBBR and SB all better. Maybe over Vai'i) at his peak he played well, he was just picked still on his slide. But I agree the top 3 modern locks are strong here.
Ben Franks (yeah, nah. Not for the modern prop role) he ran and carried better than Nepo!
*Thomson (hanging on the fringes with Blackadder) I said Thomson
*Cowan (nope) I said halfbacks
*Ellis (nope) I said halfbacks
Slade (nope) I'm not a huge fan but if playing at 10 today Slade would be in the backup 10 reckoning for some I suggest
Guildford (nope) ok but he was fringe then. But he was an excitement machine even if it was mostly off the field.
Toeava (possibly still a valuable utility but given the crossover talents we have maybe not required)-given what he achieved at the Blues and overseas I reckon he was just played too young and during his injuries. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
what what what? Some of the greatest ever ABs? Who would definitely not challenge the current ABs for a position in their prime? Maybe Thomson? Ice? The halfbacks? That is a really damn fine team!
The sum was greater than the parts IMO.Granted, and maybe the coaching was better too (and the oppositon not quite as good).
You know how many tries we scored in the three play-off games that year?
Four.
And they were scored by Woodcock, Nonu, Read and Thorn.
Nonu was a gamebreaker. Read probably was too in those days - but, was playing his first game back from injury vs the Argies.4 AB greats. Propbreaker, linebreaker, lineout sneaker and ballbreaker.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
I get the 'all in' approach but we are talking about a RWC Squad here. By your logic Conrad Smith wouldn't have won two of them.
For starters he provides bench versatility.
I get that he may not be a Nonu type 12 but neither are any of the other options. At 13 we are very light on experience.
Also think you are vastly under-raing his abilitiesYou could say exactly the same thing about Havili.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
Reckon he'd be an excellent "Kahui" even.
Injured all the time ?
He managed to stay uninjured for 6 games in a row that mattered.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks World Cup bolters:
I get the 'all in' approach but we are talking about a RWC Squad here. By your logic Conrad Smith wouldn't have won two of them.
For starters he provides bench versatility.
I get that he may not be a Nonu type 12 but neither are any of the other options. At 13 we are very light on experience.
Also think you are vastly under-raing his abilitiesYou could say exactly the same thing about Havili.
As a 13?
The reason I rate ALB over Havili is that ALB has better distribution, better defence and better reading of what's in front with the ability to feed someone into an opportunity.
RI is still learning this stuff to an extent as well.Edit: I think the better comparison to ALB is Goodhue (on previous form)
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2023:
You could say exactly the same thing about Havili.
Has been tried and found wanting when the going got tough.
Might still make the squad as a "solid" replacement though. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
RI is still learning this stuff to an extent as well.
that is a small concern for me...i mean he's been preferred at 13 for 2-3 years hasn't he?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
RI is still learning this stuff to an extent as well.
that is a small concern for me...i mean he's been preferred at 13 for 2-3 years hasn't he?
It's why some prefer him at wing. The distribution and seeing opportunities for others wasn't ingrained in his game at an earlier time.
Not to say that he can't get there. His other abilities are obviously class. He reads opportunities for himself as well as anyone (and can back them up). His defence alignment has improved in the position as well.
Personally I like our 13 being the defence organiser.
Got to weigh up the pros and cons though and he holds his spot on merit.
