All Blacks 2023
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@mariner4life Four opensides and four fullbacks.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
It's nothing new in NZ or in fact rugby anywhere with players moving around. Hell for years we had Goldie Wilson wing/fullback, Mils Muliana 15/13, Ben Smith etc etc. Look at any team, right or wrong they move players to where they need them, Farrell 10-12 Itoje 5-6 in England, , Petaia etc in Aus, Pocock played 7/8 etc. Steve Larkham played 10,12 and 15.
Not saying if it should happen, only saying it's not new and something that happens all over the place, Seems a lot of teams like starting young centres etc on wing, and also 10s at 15. As I say don't know if it good or bad etc, just seems what some coaches like. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
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@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
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@Kiwiwomble Yep mate, but often it's just to fit the best players on field, and to be honest whoever swaps between 14-15 shouldn't need a change of plan really. Funnily enough I always reckoned Wallabies stuffed up by not playing Folau at 14 though, as I always thought it suited his skills, or lack of them, and could still use his abailty under high ball by him dropping back etc.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
...... but often it's just to fit the best players on field
and this is where i struggle, im a firm believer in the old "champion team will beat a team of champions" adage, i would happily have the 2nd best player on the field if they were a better fit to the player around them
you know what i mean? no point having someone that is the world's best cross field kicker...if you have the world's best bulldozer on the wing...whos not the best at catching a cross field kick, or a 10 that is unmatched at kicking for touch...if you have a shit lineout
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
Agree. A possible tactic is to have loosies that cover the ground and not contest high kicks but wait for the collect and smash the catcher with loosies contesting the ensuing breakdown.
Could be seen as easy metres from the opposition but we would be in a better position after a turnover than after a kick collect. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Our defensive system has been a sort of umbrella system, with the wings pushing in and Jordie smashing the widest player. I don't know if any of our other options can be trusted in this role.
Maybe it's no bad thing if it has to be abandoned, since our wings often seem to get lost in it.
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I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
Those three are all world class. The aim is to make them world beaters.
At present we dont seem to have a gameplan that uses the abilities of those 10s in a way that counters the games that Ireland and France (and SA) will bring.
We need a defence that can deal with Ireland's manipulation game and disrupt their flow. With France you need to cut down their possession.
If we knew those plans we could select the right 10. -
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
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@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
100 % yes.
You sort of think the coaching staff in charge of developing a winning AB team would have come to this conclusion a few years ago.
As a coach you sit down before taking something on and devise how you want to play, what talent you have and how it fits in to what you perceive as a winning game plan.
More so if you are planning 4 years in advance to get to a WC with a high chance of winning that WC as there are more variables in a 4 year cycle. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
that's laughably wide.
Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.
If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no
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I'm def in the camp we have the players (maybe not the best, but certainly good enough) but the game plans employed are not playing to thier strengths, not to mention some out of position play, which affects things further.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Those three are all world class.
well fuck we are stetching that definition reeeaaallll fucking wide now
NZ has 3 world class 10s? Really? Well aren't we just killing it.
Depends on your definition. To me World Class doesn't mean just the best player. There are few teams in the world that wouldn't want any of those three playing for them. The obvious two are the top two because they already have world class 10s as well.
that's laughably wide.
Would either of our three main competitors right now start any of them? No
Would any of them make the bench? maybe.I'm not even convinced they would play for England, given how England want to play.
If you are putting together a World 23 are any of them really in the conversation? I would say no
So we have a different definition.
