All Blacks 2023
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I read what you said. You've said it before.
I provided a likely explanation for why he's not rushing to catch the high balls - since they're apparently not bouncing loose all over the park.
As I've also pointed out before - the ESPN stats for that game show Jordan was way more involved than Sevu (or the Irish wings - or a number of other backs) - more runs, more passes, more running metres, more tackles (actually the Irish wings made more tackles). A very rough measure, but he looks to have been busy.
https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats?gameId=595444&league=289234
Fair enough mate, I see what you saying. And I have never really read ESPN stats to be honest,. As I said it was something that stuck out in that game, and I still wonder if he was crook or something, his whole body language just looked like he was not interested, or really trying. Will repeat I a fan of him , but still thing 14 is his best position.. Just my opinion, of his play,
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@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
the last couple of pages just fucking rams home what i hate about current thinking in NZ rugby.
Is he a wing or a fullback? Is he a 10 or a fullback? is he a fullback or a 12? is he a wing or a centre?
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@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 I'd be happy keeping him on the wing until after this year's RWC - because it's very late to change now. But, if we're playing Jordie at 12 then there's question marks over whomever plays at 15. (For now, I'm expecting it will be Beauden).
But, it shouldn't be forgotten that Will was last year's Super rugby player of the year, playing fullback.
It comes down to tactics though doesn't it? If you want a big clearing boot at the back to clean up then Stevenson and Jordie offer the most in that regard.
Do you want the fullback to run it back? (DMac, BB, Jordan)
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing? (JB, Stevenson)
The aspect of 15 play that we aren't talking about is the fullback joining the line from midfield out. BB, DMac (and to an extent JB) will often join in as a second playmaker option but i still like the basics of a fullback with acceleration and vision to steam in from behind the play on a line to a weak spot. That one is probably Jordan and possibly DMac. Stevenson tends to join wide but that could be adjusted.
Bring back Cully. -
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
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@mariner4life Four opensides and four fullbacks.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2023:
@mariner4life I couldn't agree more! Extends into the forwards as well.
there is a very real chance we end up with 4 opensides and three 10s in the 23.
#balance
It's nothing new in NZ or in fact rugby anywhere with players moving around. Hell for years we had Goldie Wilson wing/fullback, Mils Muliana 15/13, Ben Smith etc etc. Look at any team, right or wrong they move players to where they need them, Farrell 10-12 Itoje 5-6 in England, , Petaia etc in Aus, Pocock played 7/8 etc. Steve Larkham played 10,12 and 15.
Not saying if it should happen, only saying it's not new and something that happens all over the place, Seems a lot of teams like starting young centres etc on wing, and also 10s at 15. As I say don't know if it good or bad etc, just seems what some coaches like. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
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@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
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@Kiwiwomble Yep mate, but often it's just to fit the best players on field, and to be honest whoever swaps between 14-15 shouldn't need a change of plan really. Funnily enough I always reckoned Wallabies stuffed up by not playing Folau at 14 though, as I always thought it suited his skills, or lack of them, and could still use his abailty under high ball by him dropping back etc.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2023:
...... but often it's just to fit the best players on field
and this is where i struggle, im a firm believer in the old "champion team will beat a team of champions" adage, i would happily have the 2nd best player on the field if they were a better fit to the player around them
you know what i mean? no point having someone that is the world's best cross field kicker...if you have the world's best bulldozer on the wing...whos not the best at catching a cross field kick, or a 10 that is unmatched at kicking for touch...if you have a shit lineout
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@Dan54 i think the difference is those kinds of selections can work if you change your game plan accordingly, so the idea of having a fullback on the right wing is at least a response to teams box kicking more when on the left side of the field, often if they dont have as strong a left to right pass so cant launch as well from that side....SA did that a lot over the years when we has jane, NMS and smith play there, they do that less but we still often put a full back at 14
same if you select multiple open sides, you need to have a game plan that compliments them....rather than just taking form 7's and telling them to play like a 6 or 8 and then being surprised when it doesnt work
Agree. A possible tactic is to have loosies that cover the ground and not contest high kicks but wait for the collect and smash the catcher with loosies contesting the ensuing breakdown.
Could be seen as easy metres from the opposition but we would be in a better position after a turnover than after a kick collect. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2023:
Do you want a high ball taker that feeds to a wing?
for me we need a back three that is most capable under the high ball, the likes of BB, WJ, CC & SS seem to fit the bill IMO.
All good atatcking players, but strong under the high ball, because we know other teams will target us there, although with a back three with that attack, they may not be so keen to do that, menaing they need to run it more, or simply trust thier chase defence.
That's why I don't discount the idea of Jordie playing fullback. He's like a latter-day Don Clarke - and we don't have anyone else like him - with the height and size to really command the air and a big and accurate boot.
Our defensive system has been a sort of umbrella system, with the wings pushing in and Jordie smashing the widest player. I don't know if any of our other options can be trusted in this role.
Maybe it's no bad thing if it has to be abandoned, since our wings often seem to get lost in it.
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I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2023:
I know it's been talked to death, but our real problem is really at 10 though isn't it. Beauden past it, Mo'unga not good enough, DMac the most promising but would most likely struggle the same way Mo'unga does in a big test. We just don't have anyone that can control the game come the knock-out stages. That to me is our biggest weakness this RWC.
Those three are all world class. The aim is to make them world beaters.
At present we dont seem to have a gameplan that uses the abilities of those 10s in a way that counters the games that Ireland and France (and SA) will bring.
We need a defence that can deal with Ireland's manipulation game and disrupt their flow. With France you need to cut down their possession.
If we knew those plans we could select the right 10. -
@Crucial yes, we either need a new game plan that plays to our world class talent...or they need to be dropped for people that can just do the game plan we currently have...we need to pick a lane and stop trying to have both
