All Blacks 2023
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Do you think the last few years of Barrett at 15 have been productive?
No, for various reasons.
Do you think we should continue?
Yes. If he's not the best option he's second best.
He is one of my favourite players of all time but its not working in my opinion.
It's not going to work with players that are less skilled.
SS has glaring issues in his game he needs to address. Jordan just gave a horror show on top of his obvious frailties in the defensive aspect of the game.
We are all agreed that it's not working.
SS / WJ / DM all have issues sure. But they also all have an x-factor. BB just has issues right now, the x-factor is long gone. Yeah, we can argue he is playing Fozzie's tactics, and maybe dismiss some of the frustrating kicking - but he also makes a shitload of errors, and has a generally poor kicking game, both exits and bomb accuracy. When is the last time he actually did something of truly high quality? He's not making breaks or counter attacking any more, he's not hitting the line with any venom. Defensively maybe he's the stronger of the 4, but DM might argue that.
I just don't see what he brings. If he was super-safe but unexciting, then I could be convinced that making a change was dangerous. But he's really not. The others guys for me offer way more upside, and a similar level of downside.
I'd be starting WJ at 15 if I was picking.
For all the Stevenson/Jordan/DMAC at 15 boo boys, look at it this way.
**> The favourites for the tournament have Mack Hansen and James Lowe in the back three.
Hardly generational talents.**
The persistence with Beaudy has created a logjam where nobody else bar his brother got time in the saddle at 15.
It’s worth pointing out that the ABs won a World Cup with Richard Kahui on the wing.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Do you think the last few years of Barrett at 15 have been productive?
No, for various reasons.
Do you think we should continue?
Yes. If he's not the best option he's second best.
He is one of my favourite players of all time but its not working in my opinion.
It's not going to work with players that are less skilled.
SS has glaring issues in his game he needs to address. Jordan just gave a horror show on top of his obvious frailties in the defensive aspect of the game.
We are all agreed that it's not working.
SS / WJ / DM all have issues sure. But they also all have an x-factor. BB just has issues right now, the x-factor is long gone. Yeah, we can argue he is playing Fozzie's tactics, and maybe dismiss some of the frustrating kicking - but he also makes a shitload of errors, and has a generally poor kicking game, both exits and bomb accuracy. When is the last time he actually did something of truly high quality? He's not making breaks or counter attacking any more, he's not hitting the line with any venom. Defensively maybe he's the stronger of the 4, but DM might argue that.
I just don't see what he brings. If he was super-safe but unexciting, then I could be convinced that making a change was dangerous. But he's really not. The others guys for me offer way more upside, and a similar level of downside.
I'd be starting WJ at 15 if I was picking.
For all the Stevenson/Jordan/DMAC at 15 boo boys, look at it this way.
**> The favourites for the tournament have Mack Hansen and James Lowe in the back three.
Hardly generational talents.**
The persistence with Beaudy has created a logjam where nobody else bar his brother got time in the saddle at 15.
It’s worth pointing out that the ABs won a World Cup with Richard Kahui on the wing.
Under rated player.
He also had the much coveted "hard shoulder" on him.
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@nzzp i really don't think we are going to be ripping anyone apart bringing on the likes of christie, newell, laulala (once lomax is back), havili, ALB, jacobsen etc.
surely if that's the plan you'd pick a different bench?Foster has definitely been conservative in his selections, squad wise and on game day.
I think Beauden Barretts inclusion is a massive problem because he also creates collateral damage on the bench.
If you had a Jordan or Stevenson at 15
Lol thank fuck you're not a selector.
Do you think the last few years of Barrett at 15 have been productive?
No, for various reasons.
Do you think we should continue?
Yes. If he's not the best option he's second best.
He is one of my favourite players of all time but its not working in my opinion.
It's not going to work with players that are less skilled.
SS has glaring issues in his game he needs to address. Jordan just gave a horror show on top of his obvious frailties in the defensive aspect of the game.
We are all agreed that it's not working.
SS / WJ / DM all have issues sure. But they also all have an x-factor. BB just has issues right now, the x-factor is long gone. Yeah, we can argue he is playing Fozzie's tactics, and maybe dismiss some of the frustrating kicking - but he also makes a shitload of errors, and has a generally poor kicking game, both exits and bomb accuracy. When is the last time he actually did something of truly high quality? He's not making breaks or counter attacking any more, he's not hitting the line with any venom. Defensively maybe he's the stronger of the 4, but DM might argue that.
I just don't see what he brings. If he was super-safe but unexciting, then I could be convinced that making a change was dangerous. But he's really not. The others guys for me offer way more upside, and a similar level of downside.
I'd be starting WJ at 15 if I was picking.
For all the Stevenson/Jordan/DMAC at 15 boo boys, look at it this way.
**> The favourites for the tournament have Mack Hansen and James Lowe in the back three.
Hardly generational talents.**
The persistence with Beaudy has created a logjam where nobody else bar his brother got time in the saddle at 15.
It’s worth pointing out that the ABs won a World Cup with Richard Kahui on the wing.
Under rated player.
He also had the much coveted "hard shoulder" on him.
Oh absolutely, I was a huge fan and hoped he’d have a long career.
But he was not the most natural winger we’ve ever had.
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Has rugby changed so much in the last decade that a skilled first five can't apply territorial pressure with his long boot? Players are faster on ball retrieval?/Lifting in lineouts negates the advantage?
This 50/20 rule seems a goodie. Something to work on. Constant up and unders seem such a hit and miss strategy.
Shovelling mediocre ball along the backline is futile against good teams.
Boks are in the box seat. Awesome scrum/lineout/prop and lock subs/backline defence -
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2023:
It’s worth pointing out that the ABs won a World Cup with Richard Kahui on the wing.
It is worth pointing out that Kahui was a fine player. And we had Wayne Smith, Foster is not Wayne Smith.
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Cannot listen to Hansen anymore.
He should have gone in 2017 as he said he would and his strenuous efforts to have Foster installed as his successor enraged me at the time and still do. -
@Jimmy-Jimmy I can't stand the smug prick either. Agreed, he should have been put to pasture in 2017.
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@Jimmy-Jimmy said in All Blacks 2023:
Cannot listen to Hansen anymore.
He should have gone in 2017 as he said he would and his strenuous efforts to have Foster installed as his successor enraged me at the time and still do.Was it Hansen?
The impression that I have is that NZ Rugby had decided on on Foster and the rest was a formality. Maybe Hansen gave his blessing to Foster, but I don't recall Hansen commenting on Fosters performance over the last 4 years or defending him beyond the bland non-answers Hansen has fed the media for years.
Hansen has attacked NZ Rugby saying "they had undermined players, bungled leadership transitions, and neglected under-age rugby."
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@PecoTrain said in All Blacks 2023:
@Jimmy-Jimmy said in All Blacks 2023:
Cannot listen to Hansen anymore.
He should have gone in 2017 as he said he would and his strenuous efforts to have Foster installed as his successor enraged me at the time and still do.Was it Hansen?
The impression that I have is that NZ Rugby had decided on on Foster and the rest was a formality. Maybe Hansen gave his blessing to Foster, but I don't recall Hansen commenting on Fosters performance over the last 4 years or defending him beyond the bland non-answers Hansen has fed the media for years.
Hansen has attacked NZ Rugby saying "they had undermined players, bungled leadership transitions, and neglected under-age rugby."
"Steve Hansen has endorsed Ian Foster to replace him as head coach of the All Blacks."
Hansen endorses Foster as All Blacks coach
Ian Foster has been given the tick of approval from outgoing All Blacks coach Steve Hansen to be his successor.
And yes he definitely defended him over the years.
Doesn't mean Hansen was wrong about NZR.. -
I know super rugby form doesn't mean much
But if I was in charge of picking the loose forwards
I'm picking Harmon at 7, the only guy in NZ rugby still hard at the ball
I've got Akira Ioane at 8 because I know he will get me through a defensive line
And I have Finau at 6 for very fucking hard shoulders.On the bench is either Ardie Savea or Sotutu to offer something different late in a game
I have height. I have balance. I have heat on the ground. I gave guys who are hard to tackle. I have guys who you don't want to he hit by
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@PecoTrain said in All Blacks 2023:
@Jimmy-Jimmy said in All Blacks 2023:
Cannot listen to Hansen anymore.
He should have gone in 2017 as he said he would and his strenuous efforts to have Foster installed as his successor enraged me at the time and still do.Was it Hansen?
The impression that I have is that NZ Rugby had decided on on Foster and the rest was a formality. Maybe Hansen gave his blessing to Foster, but I don't recall Hansen commenting on Fosters performance over the last 4 years or defending him beyond the bland non-answers Hansen has fed the media for years.
Hansen has attacked NZ Rugby saying "they had undermined players, bungled leadership transitions, and neglected under-age rugby."
"Steve Hansen has endorsed Ian Foster to replace him as head coach of the All Blacks."
Hansen endorses Foster as All Blacks coach
Ian Foster has been given the tick of approval from outgoing All Blacks coach Steve Hansen to be his successor.
And yes he definitely defended him over the years.
Doesn't mean Hansen was wrong about NZR..It's an endorsement, but not exactly what you would want if you were hoping for a glowing reference from your old boss:
"I guess with hindsight, because (Foster) has been there for the last eight years and done a fantastic job and understands what happens, he's got a good head-start over everybody else on what's needed," Hansen told a news conference Saturday."He's known for a long time that I'll be leaving and he's put together a very strong team. And if that team comes together they'll have a lot of ingredients that are needed."
All it's missing is "I suppose we could do worse" and "hopefully the team is good enough to carry him"
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I've been wondering why they never really looked at Harmon. What isn't test quality about him? All over the park, great leader, never gives up, great rugby sense as far as I can tell. That 6 7 8 combo Mariner outlined definitely has some positives-I just feel they (maybe Ryan) refuses to look at Akira.
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@nostrildamus we're locked in to Cane and Savea which really limits who you can play at 6.
It's that simple really.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus we're locked in to Cane and Savea which really limits who you can play at 6.
It's that simple really.
but not that imaginative.
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@nostrildamus Ardie with the well executed chip kick for Jordan was more imaginative than the majority of the supposed creators in the NZ backline on Friday night.
IMO, the balance was wrong on Friday in terms of piano shifters vs piano players in the pack.
Codie Taylor is one of more skilled forwards, but he was quiet. EDG was involved in a big contest at scrum time which impacted on his overall game (which was strong in the RC). Laulala was, well, Laulala. He did pretty well compared to his previous outings, but he poses no threat outside of the set piece.
Lomax is a big loss, both in the scrum and in the lineout with his height. He is also a decent ball handler. Taukei'aho needs to be given a run of games to get him back firing. He is the best NZ hooker in terms of power and running ability against bigger packs.
So when the big games roll round, the NZ front row needs to be EDG/ST/TL (assuming TL is fit).
Whitelock got through a ton of work as normal, but age catches up with us all. If he was there to unlock the French lineout, it didn't work. A second row of Retallick and Barrett offers the power and aerial ability needed as well as plenty of piano lifting and nuisances at the breakdown with a sprinkle of creativity (Barrett was good on Friday at troubling the French inside shoulder). Whitelock to come on late in the game to run himself ragged for 25/30 mins and guide the pack home.
The backrow - sigh - ABs have painted themselves into a corner with Cane as captain and Savea having played solely at no 8. With Shannon Frizell returning, the 6/7/8 of SF/SC/AS offer a hard running, defensively strong combination. This is no bad thing in the knockout stages of the world cup where NZ will need a harder edge.
So a starting pack of:
EDG/ST/TL
BR/SBSF/SC/AS
Bench forwards 5/3 split:
No idea on the reserve props as the step down feels most glaring in this area.
Codie Taylor as the reserve hooker.
Sam Whitelock as the reserve lock
Ethan Blackadder to cover 6/7/8
Are they the best pack in the competition. No. Are they capable of giving the backs enough of a platform. Yes. Their role is to tie in the opposing packs and provide decent ball for a backline that still has enough skill in them to open up defences.
NZ have scored 4 tries against the world-leading Bok defence this year in NZ and 2 tries against a much vaunted French defence on Friday night. NZ can still score tries. The big work ons from the last 2 games are:
- Applying pressure on the ruck to disrupt opposition ball. Counter rucking in twos and threes. French and Boks are very good at this.
- Not giving away stupid penalties (accuracy in clean outs was missing on Friday - wouldn't surprise me if the fear of a bad cleanout is preying on minds) and playing with less than 15 players for any period of time.
- Kick chasing - NZ don't have to win the aerial battle in the air. Let the man come down and be ready to smash him into next week Richard Kahui style. McCaw's AB team used to drive teams backwards in defence until they kicked or made mistakes. This AB team have enough good tacklers to force teams back with the sheer ferocity of their tackling.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
Taukei'aho needs to be given a run of games to get him back firing. He is the best NZ hooker in terms of power and running ability against bigger packs.
Have been so frustrated by his exclusion from the starting XV. Our most physical and best tight forward. You have to start him as often as possible.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2023:
I know super rugby form doesn't mean much
But if I was in charge of picking the loose forwards
I'm picking Harmon at 7, the only guy in NZ rugby still hard at the ball
I've got Akira Ioane at 8 because I know he will get me through a defensive line
And I have Finau at 6 for very fucking hard shoulders.On the bench is either Ardie Savea or Sotutu to offer something different late in a game
I have height. I have balance. I have heat on the ground. I gave guys who are hard to tackle. I have guys who you don't want to he hit by
- FINAU
- BLACKADDER
- SAVEA
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus Ardie with the well executed chip kick for Jordan was more imaginative than the majority of the supposed creators in the NZ backline on Friday night.
IMO, the balance was wrong on Friday in terms of piano shifters vs piano players in the pack.
Corey Flynn is one of more skilled forwards, but he was quiet. EDG was involved in a big contest at scrum time which impacted on his overall game (which was strong in the RC). Laulala was, well, Laulala. He did pretty well compared to his previous outings, but he poses no threat outside of the set piece.
Lomax is a big loss, both in the scrum and in the lineout with his height. He is also a decent ball handler. Taukei'aho needs to be given a run of games to get him back firing. He is the best NZ hooker in terms of power and running ability against bigger packs.
So when the big games roll round, the NZ front row needs to be EDG/ST/TL (assuming TL is fit).
Whitelock got through a ton of work as normal, but age catches up with us all. If he was there to unlock the French lineout, it didn't work. A second row of Retallick and Barrett offers the power and aerial ability needed as well as plenty of piano lifting and nuisances at the breakdown with a sprinkle of creativity (Barrett was good on Friday at troubling the French inside shoulder). Whitelock to come on late in the game to run himself ragged for 25/30 mins and guide the pack home.
The backrow - sigh - ABs have painted themselves into a corner with Cane as captain and Savea having played solely at no 8. With Shannon Frizell returning, the 6/7/8 of SF/SC/AS offer a hard running, defensively strong combination. This is no bad thing in the knockout stages of the world cup where NZ will need a harder edge.
So a starting pack of:
EDG/ST/TL
BR/SBSF/SC/AS
Bench forwards 5/3 split:
No idea on the reserve props as the step down feels most glaring in this area.
Corey Flynn as the reserve hooker.
Sam Whitelock as the reserve lock
Ethan Blackadder to cover 6/7/8
Are they the best pack in the competition. No. Are they capable of giving the backs enough of a platform. Yes. Their role is to tie in the opposing packs and provide decent ball for a backline that still has enough skill in them to open up defences.
NZ have scored 4 tries against the world-leading Bok defence this year in NZ and 2 tries against a much vaunted French defence on Friday night. NZ can still score tries. The big work ons from the last 2 games are:
- Applying pressure on the ruck to disrupt opposition ball. Counter rucking in twos and threes. French and Boks are very good at this.
- Not giving away stupid penalties (accuracy in clean outs was missing on Friday - wouldn't surprise me if the fear of a bad cleanout is preying on minds) and playing with less than 15 players for any period of time.
- Kick chasing - NZ don't have to win the aerial battle in the air. Let the man come down and be ready to smash him into next week Richard Kahui style. McCaw's AB team used to drive teams backwards in defence until they kicked or made mistakes. This AB team have enough good tacklers to force teams back with the sheer ferocity of their tackling.
Corey Flynn?
