What is Good for Women's Rugby
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Personally, I think it's a mistake to follow the mens model with Super Rugby and NPC split. I would consolidate to NPC only and focus on improving that level (player numbers, coaches, etc). It would be an opportunity to try different structures to apply to the mens game as well, be innovative with the woman's game.
The key is to raise the standard and have an entertaining product to attract fans to the game. In a climate where 5000 is seen as a "good" crowd for mens NPC and "15000" good for Super Rugby, fan numbers are crucial to any funding the woman's game needs. With the current health of the game, there isn't an endless pot of cash to grow the woman's game without eyeballs on TV or at the ground.
The 20,000 spare tickets at a World Cup semi final is a worrying sign of fan engagement really. If the people clammering for more resources don't actually watch the games or go to the games then it will always underperform.
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@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Another name change for the thread.
How can Rugby, particularly NZ Rugby, make the most of the event and occasion that was RWC2021?
Need to grab the young'uns while the 3 second attention span hasn't wandered.
Some thoughts:
- Get England back here in 2023 (or at least France)
Play a 3 test series, and maybe some mid weeks. Black Fern Maori?
Play tests in times outside of AB and other rep games and make them accessible to a family audience.
Sunday arvos is a good time - free of men's rep Rugby, and family friendly. (Noting that back in my day women played club footy on Sundays.)
Play at venues where they didn't play in the RWC: Welly, Dunners and anywhere that's not as embarrassing as Chch.
Do same for any Pac4 games in NZ.
Maybe one or two as curtain raisers good for crowds and awareness? But think they could make these into decent events and money spinners.
That's the short term look out.
- Create more age grade opportunities.
Ensure there are girls club and school comps available.
Work with clubs and schools to combine any interested girls (coz I'm convinced that the number of girls wanting to play may still be below the threshold) into combined club teams. Don't let them slip through because of club parochiality (if that's a word).
- Get merch into the shops.
May be an immediate issue due to supply chain.
- Educate the masses ...
Any other thoughts?
Good ideas but unfortunately the ship has sailed on some of them
2023 is a shit year for home games in NZ for all rugby. FIFA have sewn up the stadiums for a big chunk of the season. Terrible timing for the womens game after the RWC but it can't be changed. Would like to see effort put in to find solutions though instead of just waiving things away.
Pac4 moves around the various countries as a mini tourney. We just had our turn. I think they are negotiating the hosting for 2023 - there may be a possibility of 'helping out' .
Laurie O'Reilly Cup is scheduled for a home and away (that may be the only BF home game)
I believe they are also negotiating a crossover Aupiki/ Oz game. Probably just the winners.
Then there's the new WR comp. Three of the Pac4 teams will qualify and play against three NH teams this year I think. Likely to be played in the NH.
Biggest opportunities lie with Aupiki and FPC. Support for franchises and unions to try and recreate the family friendly atmosphere games that you mention. Let's make it a very different product to Super and NPC. Picnic days, photos with the RWC and 'stars' etc etc.Pathways are the other issue to tackle as @Stargazer talks about. Always has been a problem and the transition for increased numbers will be difficult waters to navigate. Many a top player has had to rely on huge parental sacrifice to attend trainings hours away or players have had to move. Everyone has different story or pathway, sometimes made harder by trying to find the right level for progression. The further you live from ChCh, Auckland or Hamilton the harder it is and even then Auckland players can have it tough with location and travel.
Here's a tale I know from 'inside'. Young kid with parents that used to play rugby (Heartland level) and encouraged with lots of sports and activities. Loved playing Rippa and did well. Also did lots of outdoor activities like hunting, farm work etc so wasn't afraid of a bit of rough and tumble. After Rippa there was nothing so horse riding filled the sports passion until it got to the point where the ability could only go further with massive investment from parents that was not achievable. Luckily this coincided with an opportunity to play rugby again at school. Pure fluke by having an ex AB7s player as school sports coordinator.
Long story short the talent was obvious but opportunity was light. The schools comp was very short and winter in the area also meant cancellations. Playing club also wasn't an option due to protocols around playing time for young players etc although the odd one fitted in.
Development teams were training sessions only (a few hours drive) and maybe a inter squad trial game. Eventually this lead to involvement then playing with FPC but any push in this area would have to involve a move to the team base for schooling and playing. Decision was that if you had to leave home and change school to play the game you may as well go somewhere that could offer an academy, club play and quality coaches. So the local pathway was ditched and one further afield taken. Similar story to Amy Rule who skipped the Southland/Otago progression and went straight to ChCh.
So how do you make this kind of story better and get more players through the system instead of just accelerating talent from schools?
Clubs working together would be an idea. Support from NZR to hold tournaments of composite teams 'sevens style'. Make them fun affairs for the players and attending families. Keep the numbers going of players post Rippa with a progression that introduces tackle and impact in a measured way. Maybe steal Golden Oldies/ Veterans coloured shorts systems and minimal scrum pushing. Work alongside other sports to ensure that it can be played without kids having to prioritise what they play.
Most of all get women to run these 'tourneys' to create a safe environment.
Maybe continue this through to 15/16/17 with a transition for those that need longer before a schools comp.
NZR to fund Community Rugby Officer effort into creating a viable comp among schools. This will differ from area to area depending on numbers and distances but don't let schools dictate where kids can play. An excess at one school could provide an opportunity at another. Make sport the priority over 'school pride'.
Composite school teams from regions to play each other within provinces either at a tourney or short comp too.
In other words provide opportunities to play AND opportunities to progress. -
Interesting. I'm not sure how would be best.
I think one thing that is proven, is that running it as its own event rather than piggy backing off the mens event as a curtain raiser - is actually the way to go.
E.g. The FPC as curtain-raisers to NPC games are non-events, apart from being 2 hours of filler for Sky early on a weekend afternoon. Same with Black Ferns as a curtain raiser to an All Blacks test.
Where as the standalone Womens World Cup generates it's owm buzz and momentum.
It would be interesting to compare with how the concurrent RLWC is going. Where womens (plus wheelchair version) is combined (piggybacking) with the Mens tournament.
But, I have my doubts about professional momentum. Maybe I'm just to negative with the modern refereeing of rugby. But, I find it pretty terrible game to watch now, and only nationalism (and history) keeps me still watching it at Al Black level. I don't have enough energy in my life to get driven insane by also watching this version of it at a franchise or provincial level anymore. All the little micro decisions at maul and rolling away, and scrum time drive me nuts. But. that may just be me ....
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Moving on to a more positive interpretation of the future. At a macro level. I do think there are 2 areas of potential growth in supporters in NZ. And coincidentally womens' rugby will be in a position to capitalise on those areas almost by default.
- women (obviously, duh)
- kids (
daytime weekendbefore bedtime sport)
Mens pro rugby lost the next generation by going almost exclusively night time entertainment back by about 2000 when the last of the major venues got lights. Late Gen-X were the last hooked generation. The ladder got pulled up after them, and crowds are an ever dwindling (and ever aging) collection of drunk adults only.
If womens rugby target the daytime, and more family/youthful market, there is a gap. But it doesn't pay as well as the night time, older, paywalled market. There will be pressure eventually for pay-parity etc via the media. So ......
The other potential gap, but it won't be filled by default by womens rugby. Is the FTA TV gap. NZRU going exlusively behind the Sky paywall. I think the sky paywall took longer to show effects than night time rugby. Not really obvious the impact for about 15 to 20 years after 1996. But it is there, maybe the next gen would have followed the playstation anyway ....
(Back in July, I didn't have Sky on, had the in-laws staying the weekend. I thought watching the delayed coverage of the All Blacks test that Saturday would be good group watch/activity that most would be interested in. Just stay away from our phones for an hour until the 8:30 delayed coverage on Prime. Looked it up, the delayed coverage was not until midday the next day. Jesus Christ. The sport isn't popular enough anymore to be able to afford that sort of big f@ck-you to poor people, or slightly dis-engaged people.) If the NRL had the foresight to go FTA in NZ they could absolutely kill it. Luckily for NZRU the NRL are obsessed with comparing their TV deals with the AFL.
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Another name change for the thread.
How can Rugby, particularly NZ Rugby, make the most of the event and occasion that was RWC2021?
Need to grab the young'uns while the 3 second attention span hasn't wandered.
Some thoughts:
- Get England back here in 2023 (or at least France)
Play a 3 test series, and maybe some mid weeks. Black Fern Maori?
Play tests in times outside of AB and other rep games and make them accessible to a family audience.
Sunday arvos is a good time - free of men's rep Rugby, and family friendly. (Noting that back in my day women played club footy on Sundays.)
Play at venues where they didn't play in the RWC: Welly, Dunners and anywhere that's not as embarrassing as Chch.
Do same for any Pac4 games in NZ.
Maybe one or two as curtain raisers good for crowds and awareness? But think they could make these into decent events and money spinners.
That's the short term look out.
- Create more age grade opportunities.
Ensure there are girls club and school comps available.
Work with clubs and schools to combine any interested girls (coz I'm convinced that the number of girls wanting to play may still be below the threshold) into combined club teams. Don't let them slip through because of club parochiality (if that's a word).
- Get merch into the shops.
May be an immediate issue due to supply chain.
- Educate the masses ...
Any other thoughts?
2023 is a shit year for home games in NZ for all rugby. FIFA have sewn up the stadiums for a big chunk of the season.
That's not the whole season though is it?
They're not stuck with having to fit a long Super season in before the Test season.
Also, gives opportunity to take games to provincial centres. I'm assuming Tauranga, Napier, Palmy Nelson aren't on FIFA's list of venues? 5-10k crowds would still be a win.
Clubs working together would be an idea
An excess at one school could provide an opportunity at another.
Tried to hint at that above. It's in club's long term interest to build the base. Pathways come as a result.
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@Rapido great post
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@Crucial said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
So how do you make this kind of story better and get more players through the system instead of just accelerating talent from schools?
Clubs working together would be an idea.The women's club comp in Hawke's Bay was won by a combined team Taratech (Taradale & Napier Tech). There is also a combined team for the entire (rural) central Hawke's Bay.
I assume this is happening in more provinces.Composite school teams from regions to play each other within provinces either at a tourney or short comp too.
Also already happening. I don't know about this year, but in Hawke's Bay Napier Girls HS combined with William Colenso College. Again, I assume this is happening in more provinces, but maybe it could be improved/increased.
Several years ago, Gisborne GHS was competing in the Hawke's Bay girls' school competition, but not anymore. Obviously, there was the travel factor (GGHS played all their games against HB schools in Wairoa for that reason). I assume they now play in a Poverty Bay comp. If the distances weren't so big, it would be great if they could combine both provinces' girls comp, to have more schools, so more games in a longer comp.
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@booboo said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
That's not the whole season though is it?
No but FIFA lock out the stadiums (EP, Waikato, Caketin, FBS) for their games plus a month beforehand. The knockon effect pushing mens games around does make things a mess. I am really only referring to this as an organisational hurdle that makes things difficult should a BF game opportunity arise.
Agree with feeding off FPC as much as possible to try and push the 'new' way of attending games as an affordable family outing
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@Rapido said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
Interesting. I'm not sure how would be best.
I think one thing that is proven, is that running it as its own event rather than piggy backing off the mens event as a curtain raiser - is actually the way to go.
E.g. The FPC as curtain-raisers to NPC games are non-events, apart from being 2 hours of filler for Sky early on a weekend afternoon. Same with Black Ferns as a curtain raiser to an All Blacks test.
The number of double header FPC - NPC games have been drastically reduced the last few years. For those watching games on tv it's a pity that some FPC games are played at the same time as NPC games or other FPC games (which is unfortunately also happening with NPC games being played at the same time, esp on Sunday).
Where as the standalone Womens World Cup generates it's owm buzz and momentum.
Yep. Those standalone tournaments/games is what the women's players want themselves, too.
But, I have my doubts about professional momentum. Maybe I'm just to negative with the modern refereeing of rugby. But, I find it pretty terrible game to watch now, and only nationalism (and history) keeps me still watching it at Al Black level. I don't have enough energy in my life to get driven insane by also watching this version of it at a franchise or provincial level anymore. All the little micro decisions at maul and rolling away, and scrum time drive me nuts. But. that may just be me ....
Although I don't like some of the Laws or the way they are applied, I still enjoy watching the games as much as I did years ago. Just go with the flow. Adjust. Relax. Don't get annoyed so much by things you can't control. Look at the positives (there are plenty of them).
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I chuckle at this thread given the new title of it. It's middle aged men discussing what's best for women's rugby. Verity Johnson step on up 😀
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@Crazy-Horse Some of these middle aged men are/may be involved with women's rugby, know female players/coaches, are parents of (aspiring) female players, listen to women's views about these subjects.
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@Stargazer said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crazy-Horse Some of these middle aged men are/may be involved with women's rugby, know female players/coaches, are parents of (aspiring) female players, listen to women's views about these subjects.
I know mate and I have no issue with the thread at all.
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@Stargazer said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@Crazy-Horse Some of these middle aged men are/may be involved with women's rugby, know female players/coaches, are parents of (aspiring) female players, listen to women's views about these subjects.
I am also advocating that women run the game as much as possible. Part of the RWC success was that women saw women driving what was happening.
Board, coaching, management , organisation....let them at it and I'll support from the sidelines. -
The growth area has to be in the Primary/secondary girls age group. Even at primary age they need girls only tackle. At tackle age you see one or two girls but there is a fall off from Rippa.
In the Waikato they have school teams that play on Wednesdays. The elite comp is the Chiefs Manawa comp. Most of the rest of the schools have one team. There is a development grade for a couple of weaker schools and 3 U15 teams including a club based team from Tokoroa. At Primary level there are no girls grades but I think they have a few rippa/tackle tournaments. There are sometimes girls only teams at rippa level. The Premier womens grade has no development grade with a lot of hidings till they split towards the end of the year.
Counties ran a club based girls only Rippa comp on Friday nights. The First XV comp was 5 teams playing tens. Manurewa and Wesley played in the Aucklaand comp. Counties club teams play in the Auckland comps. Most teams are in North Counties, Patumahoe being the only one more rural/town based playing in the 10's comp. My home district club Onewhero is trying to get a team for next year, they had a team 20 years ago. After the Black Ferns won in 1998 there was some growth in the region but that fell away.
I see that Auckland have a club based U15's grade as well as 1st XV and tens grades. Girls only Rippa at U9, U11, U13.
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@mikedogz hence why I wonder if, instead of following traditional progression structures there is a tackle transition period available that might use something like coloured shorts to help players move into full on play.
At tese ages the levels of development differ quite a bit, as does the reason and mindset for playing. there are little kids that want nothing more than smashing out some physical contact and others that may be a bit shy of it.
Again a reason why maybe getting the mums involved is a better option than having them worried. -
The path to success is to have the best people, regardless of gender, run the sport. Picking coaches or adminstrators by anything other than merit is doomed to failure.
For example, picking a female ref for the World Cup final was a mistake IMO. The sport can't afford not to do everything it can to raise standards.
On the flip side, no reason why we can't have female refs (or adminstrators) in the mens game. Pick the best people.
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In my son's last year of rippa the best player was a girl who carved up. She played one game of tackle, got hurt, never came back.
There are tough girls that can handle boys rugby but that changes once puberty comes in. Another girl my son played with got stuck in and matched it with the boys and made the Rep teams at intermediate age as a flanker and moved to halfback for her last year. She is at HGHS now and is making rep teams and on the fringe of the First XV.
I'm a sporty admin for my club and I can see that we have about 20 girls, almost enough around the same age to create a ten aside team if there was a girls only tackle grade in the Waikato.
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
On the flip side, no reason why we can't have female refs (or adminstrators) in the mens game. Pick the best people.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/GettyImages-915969060.jpg
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@Kirwan said in What is Good for Women's Rugby:
@chimoaus She any worse that the plonkers Aussie rugby have picked now or in the past? Mark Robinson?
I have no idea how they select these CEO's but the pay packet often doesn't match the ability that is for sure. I have no idea why it is so difficult to get competent leaders.
