All Black backline
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@No-Quarter said in All Black backline:
@Crucial our backs were only deep for the Clarke try as it came from an Argentinian line out. Amazing what players like Rieko and Jordie can do with a yard of space eh.
I had a chance this morning to run through the game and this talk of the problems from the backs being too flat has no evidence to back it up.
I can understand the perception from memory but it is all forwards that are in the flat alignment getting in the way of the backs.
Our backs had little chance to try running from deep as there were only 4 scrums in the first 65 minutes and our lineouts send a pre-arranged pod out.
It is correct that when the backs got a chance they used it (the lineout win off Arg ball) but even that had forwards in the front line with the backs deep.
There was one occasion when we tried to go wide from within our half and a group of two backs and one forward got well ahead of themselves out wide and made a hash.
There was another (again from in our half) where the back used a deep alignment and ran onto the ball but no one fixed a defender and halted the drift. Ioane was easy drifted onto and then made a bad decision trying to release the ball off the ground.
The attack pattern looks to be pods of forwards gaining ground until there was an opportunity to release to the backs. Occasionally Havili comes into the line to reset if two pods have gone to ground in quick succession.
It was actually working quite well if you look solely at metres gained and line breaks/bends.
We had two major problems though (which then escalated into poor decisions later). One was that we were not benefiting much from the ground made because of either our own errors or attacking penalties (we were stiffed by that obstruction at the lineout call, that could have changed the shape of the game). This, combined with handing kickable penalties to ARG lead to us taking shots at goal and the scoreboard being tight.
The team stuck to the attack pattern quite well and constantly gained ground but circumstances and small errors kept things tight. The fumble from the kickoff by Scooter and Arg try was the killer that then ramped up the pressure big time and Arg started tackling like demons with a much more spread line defence once they had the lead.
This was the time when running from our own half needed to be put away. Trouble was that our kicking game when tried was terrible. Jordan kicked down the tramlines and chased at a jog. Mounga kicked straight to the fullback and put us into a kicking duel that we lost. Jordie ran out of his 22 then kicked the ball to the fullback covering the wing. It was shite.
In contrast Argentina kicked high putting the ball in front of the forwards with enough time for the kicker to run forward and challenge/tackle and put them onside. One excellent high ball take was turned over in a flash because the forwards were waiting right where the catcher came down.
From then on the kicks were put away and the awful panicked runs took over.
The bounce of the ball didn't go our way a lot. We were by far the better team with a better plan that was working right up to the point of a penalty for the first two thirds of the game. Once we gave them hope through a mistake though the Dravid defence went up and we had no answer or execution to deal with it. -
@Yeahtheboys said in All Black backline:
2027 world cup team
- Norris
- Taukeiaho
- Newell
- S. Barrett
- Vaai
- Savea
- Papalii
- Sotutu
- Christie
- Mounga
- Reiko
- Tupaea
- ALB
- Jordan
- Jordie
Bench
- Aumua / Thompson
- De Groot
- Lomax
- Vaai
- Grace
- Fakatava / Roigard / Hotham / Ratima / Roe?
- Dmac
- RTS
Does Vaa’i have a twin?
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@bayimports said in All Black backline:
@mariner4life said in All Black backline:
As far as i can see (and this is qualified by the fact i'm definitely a forward guy) our backline looks like poos because
we are wedded to being as flat as fuck. from 10 out
We don't have a game organiser at 10
We don't have an anything at 12
We are wedded to not only being flat, but very wide, meaning our wings are stationed on the touchline.
We don't know how to bring our outside backs in to play.I don't think the personnel are as good as the coaches seem to. And i think our entire formation fucking sucks.
If you gave Ioane, Jordan, Clarke and even Jordie just a little more depth and a little more time, they are going to give defences kittens. But we give them nothing.
SA Game 2 we looked shit hot out wider because of a noticable increase in our starting depth. R Ioane was over the gain line constantly, because he got the ball at pace with a bit more than a microsecond before the defender arrived.Who we pick means far less than where they start each phase from IMO.
I actually agree with this, but I will also add couple of points that need to ring true for success. Depth only works when you have backs or forwards to run on to it and you also need players to straighten to create gaps.
In most cases we have the players to do this, but often our players run others out of room as you mention later slower forwards clog the gaps. Reiko is a classic example of a guy who can run his winger out of space if you're selective, but I'm not going to criticize him too much here because I have also felt on a lot of those occasions the ball he has received has also not been ideal. Look at where he took the ball from SA 2 versus AR 1. This supports the theory that the problems stem more from 9/10/12.
If you look at the structure introduced last week, when setting for multiple phases we actually created momentum in the first 40 with player makers split both sides or 1/3/3/1 formations ready to use from depth out the back. Did we use it? No. Nada.
Foster was quite clear the players operated with more in eyes up mode, rather than followed strategy. In my mind Schmidt and Foster had plans for a territory game and with the new structure planned and to play from depth at the right end of the field. However we executed poorly again.
There is a clear leadership problem on the field which we have all seen (and it could be as simple as players taking it upon themselves to do something different rather than follow a script to be a savior) , confidence and still just not being good at the basics. Keeping it focused on the backs though, I don't think the captain is making backline decisions which also shows leadership from our 9/10/12 needs to improve as well.
Given the new structure is likely here to stay for (a while at least), I would certainly prefer a 12 that could fit style, but be able to adapt to flat and depth. This also means forwards need to focus on their core duties and clean out consistently, jackal where possible etc
Either way executing any strategy means players needing to follow that on the field
Well said. In last 20 one of the best tactical variations was a chip by Jordie which caused Pumas a lot of trouble. But then forgotten in last 15?
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@Crucial said in All Black backline:
@Chris said in All Black backline:
@mariner4life said in All Black backline:
@Crucial said in All Black backline:
@No-Quarter said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
Rieko still runs like a winger. His first thought is evading the tackle himself rather than holding the space and putting someone into it. He runs his outsides out of space looking for the outside break. His passing isn't all that accurate, and when quick hands are called for, he often doesn't have them. We aren't blessed with a whole lot of options right now, but it is still a contrast from Goodhue or even Tupaea or Nankivell.
He's got massive strengths, and the upside of all that pace is very tempting if he can continue to improve the other aspects. He's also got big weaknesses in defence and just general error rate.
The basic problem is not the player, it's that we'll never see him at his best in this disfunctional team pattern: we don't use his pace or give him space, so all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game.
The bolded bit - Clarke's try was created by Rieko holding 2 defenders and putting Jordie through the gap. I don't think you realise how much he's developed at 13, he's been leading the way in try assists for the Blues (and probably SR but I'm too lazy to look it up)
The problem with Rieko isn't that he can't do all the things you talk about, it's that he gets the ball and defender at the same because because of our braindead flat & wide formation.
At Ellis Park our backline looked shit hot despite RM and DH having erratic games because we stood deeper and gave players like Rieko a chance to run the ball.
@mariner4life is right when he says it doesn't actually matter who we pick if we continue with that dumb flat formation on attack.
We don't know if that was the coaches or the players though. Post game comments implied that it was the players that didn't hold depth and were over eager.
if you tell the players to do one thing, and they do another, and then lose, repeatedly, you drop them.
Maybe the players are not listening because they do not trust or believe in the messages being sent to them.
Possibly true, but if so they are lying when they publicly say otherwise.
My guess. They revert to type under pressure. Every team now sees that if you pressure the ABs hard they will make errors that keep you in the game.
We’ve all criticised other teams for kicking ball away when they need to score a try in last 10. And BB in latest interview confirmed that in the crunch the instinct was to hold the ball and run. Trouble is that it’s become easy to defend.
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@Crucial said in All Black backline:
I had a chance this morning to run through the game and this talk of the problems from the backs being too flat has no evidence to back it up.
The claim came from a random guy on the roar and just got repeated by 3 or 4 people here
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@junior said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
Rieko still runs like a winger. His first thought is evading the tackle himself rather than holding the space and putting someone into it. He runs his outsides out of space looking for the outside break. His passing isn't all that accurate, and when quick hands are called for, he often doesn't have them. We aren't blessed with a whole lot of options right now, but it is still a contrast from Goodhue or even Tupaea or Nankivell.
He's got massive strengths, and the upside of all that pace is very tempting if he can continue to improve the other aspects. He's also got big weaknesses in defence and just general error rate.
The basic problem is not the player, it's that we'll never see him at his best in this disfunctional team pattern: we don't use his pace or give him space, so all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game.
I could understand this argument if we had both ALB and Goodhue fit and in form and therefore had 13 options that had spent years developing their craft and were highly specialised in their position. However, neither of them are fit and now and as a combo they haven't been fit for like 3 years.
Simply put, RI is easily our best available 13 and very likely our best performing backline player. He has some rough edges, but he's developing his game each week and turning into a very fine centre. Sure, maybe he looks to back himself too often, but given his talent and athleticism - and to use the same shit arguments that get lots of players a free pass - it would not surprise me if that's what he has been instructed to do. Indeed, given that playing him at 13 is about the only innovation Fozzie has against the rush defence, it stands to reason that this is what he has been instructed to do.
As described in my post above there is merit in the argument that Rieko isn't fixing the drift enough. It would be good if others had done so before he got the ball but he does try the outside on without drawing and passing. When he makes the break it is great, when he doesn't we are under pressure.
I'm not blaming him though as there also seems o be a reluctance (that could come from training) to pass to the wingers.
On three occasions I noticed this- hot on attack with Clarke having about 20 metres squared to work in yet Rieko looks out there and puts a grubber to the sweeper
- we get a roll on with multiple phases that has the Argies scrambling. Havili makes a half break down the left with Clarke outside him in perfect position but cuts in and takes the tackle
- ball spread wide to deep runners from about 10m inside our half but no one fixes the slide. Rieko has an option to straighten slightly and release Clarke one on one but chooses to try and go outside the defender and break through. I guess it worked in the first half try against a scrambling defence but it doesn't against an organised one.
We are actually being a little conservative when running the ball when a pass to the wing might just cause a little panic and some mistakes from the opposition.
On my second watch of the game I have changed my initial view quite a bit and am finding that the accustaions that I brought into of being helter skelter and expecting to score from everywhere are well off.
They just aren't getting the decision making correct on when to kick/where to kick to/when to set the outsides free etc.
One possible problem that is contributing here is that we aren't getting any decent chase on our kicks or from the back to support an outside break.
Will Jordan is in a real slump. He isn't chasing anything. Neither Jordie or Mounga are putting effort into chasing their own kicks either (probably because they recognise that it is a fruitless excercise given where they have kicked it) -
@Crucial said in All Black backline:
@junior said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
Rieko still runs like a winger. His first thought is evading the tackle himself rather than holding the space and putting someone into it. He runs his outsides out of space looking for the outside break. His passing isn't all that accurate, and when quick hands are called for, he often doesn't have them. We aren't blessed with a whole lot of options right now, but it is still a contrast from Goodhue or even Tupaea or Nankivell.
He's got massive strengths, and the upside of all that pace is very tempting if he can continue to improve the other aspects. He's also got big weaknesses in defence and just general error rate.
The basic problem is not the player, it's that we'll never see him at his best in this disfunctional team pattern: we don't use his pace or give him space, so all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game.
I could understand this argument if we had both ALB and Goodhue fit and in form and therefore had 13 options that had spent years developing their craft and were highly specialised in their position. However, neither of them are fit and now and as a combo they haven't been fit for like 3 years.
Simply put, RI is easily our best available 13 and very likely our best performing backline player. He has some rough edges, but he's developing his game each week and turning into a very fine centre. Sure, maybe he looks to back himself too often, but given his talent and athleticism - and to use the same shit arguments that get lots of players a free pass - it would not surprise me if that's what he has been instructed to do. Indeed, given that playing him at 13 is about the only innovation Fozzie has against the rush defence, it stands to reason that this is what he has been instructed to do.
As described in my post above there is merit in the argument that Rieko isn't fixing the drift enough. It would be good if others had done so before he got the ball but he does try the outside on without drawing and passing. When he makes the break it is great, when he doesn't we are under pressure.
I'm not blaming him though as there also seems o be a reluctance (that could come from training) to pass to the wingers.
On three occasions I noticed this- hot on attack with Clarke having about 20 metres squared to work in yet Rieko looks out there and puts a grubber to the sweeper
- we get a roll on with multiple phases that has the Argies scrambling. Havili makes a half break down the left with Clarke outside him in perfect position but cuts in and takes the tackle
- ball spread wide to deep runners from about 10m inside our half but no one fixes the slide. Rieko has an option to straighten slightly and release Clarke one on one but chooses to try and go outside the defender and break through. I guess it worked in the first half try against a scrambling defence but it doesn't against an organised one.
We are actually being a little conservative when running the ball when a pass to the wing might just cause a little panic and some mistakes from the opposition.
On my second watch of the game I have changed my initial view quite a bit and am finding that the accustaions that I brought into of being helter skelter and expecting to score from everywhere are well off.
They simply are getting the decision making correct on when to kick/where to kick to/when to set the outsides free etc.
One possible problem that is contributing here is that we aren't getting any decent chase on our kicks or from the back to support an outside break.
Will Jordan is in a real slump. He isn't chasing anything. Neither Jordie or Mounga are putting effort into chasing their own kicks either (probably because they recognise that it is a fruitless excercise given where they have kicked it)Mounga and BB never chase kicks in this environment they drop back straight away for any return kicks.
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@PecoTrain said in All Black backline:
@junior said in All Black backline:
@reprobate said in All Black backline:
Rieko still runs like a winger. His first thought is evading the tackle himself rather than holding the space and putting someone into it. He runs his outsides out of space looking for the outside break. His passing isn't all that accurate, and when quick hands are called for, he often doesn't have them. We aren't blessed with a whole lot of options right now, but it is still a contrast from Goodhue or even Tupaea or Nankivell.
He's got massive strengths, and the upside of all that pace is very tempting if he can continue to improve the other aspects. He's also got big weaknesses in defence and just general error rate.
The basic problem is not the player, it's that we'll never see him at his best in this disfunctional team pattern: we don't use his pace or give him space, so all we are left with is poor defensive communication and a couple of turnovers per game.
I could understand this argument if we had both ALB and Goodhue fit and in form and therefore had 13 options that had spent years developing their craft and were highly specialised in their position. However, neither of them are fit and now and as a combo they haven't been fit for like 3 years.
Simply put, RI is easily our best available 13 and very likely our best performing backline player. He has some rough edges, but he's developing his game each week and turning into a very fine centre. Sure, maybe he looks to back himself too often, but given his talent and athleticism - and to use the same shit arguments that get lots of players a free pass - it would not surprise me if that's what he has been instructed to do. Indeed, given that playing him at 13 is about the only innovation Fozzie has against the rush defence, it stands to reason that this is what he has been instructed to do.
My recollection was that Crusaders had Havili/Goodhue/Ennor/Crotty/Fainga'anuku and the All Blacks had CrottyALB as their preferred 13s, so with SBW looking suspect, having Ritchie/Goodhue play 10/12 looked like a good option...
They just put Crotty at 12 or 13 as a stopgap whenever and then when he decided to depart everyone turned around (well many) and went hey, he isn't actually just a journeyman!
We haven't seemed to settle on a 13 since Conrad.and then when Goodhue appeared he just looked to slot in really well (if I recall correctly). -
@nostrildamus said in All Black backline:
We haven't seemed to settle on a 13 since Conrad.and then when Goodhue appeared he just looked to slot in really well (if I recall correctly).
we have - it's Rieko!
Goodhue had a monster test defensively against the Saffers in Welly. He was awesome - stopped big runners dead in their tracks, positioned well, looked fantastic. Can't remember his offense, but his defensive shift was off the charts.
We lost that due to Jordie's brain fade, and our inability to drop a goal when needed at the death. Rugby DNA again perhaps?
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@nzzp said in All Black backline:
@nostrildamus said in All Black backline:
We haven't seemed to settle on a 13 since Conrad.and then when Goodhue appeared he just looked to slot in really well (if I recall correctly).
we have - it's Rieko!
Goodhue had a monster test defensively against the Saffers in Welly. He was awesome - stopped big runners dead in their tracks, positioned well, looked fantastic. Can't remember his offense, but his defensive shift was off the charts.
We lost that due to Jordie's brain fade, and our inability to drop a goal when needed at the death. Rugby DNA again perhaps?
If I recall correctly Goodhue as AB wasn't a major running threat but he distributed well and had great vision.
Unlike some, I think Rieko has great potential at 13 but needs much more direction/coaching to really unlock his potential. -
@nostrildamus I'd have liked Goodhue to have a run at 12 with Reiko at 13, as above, I think it's the defensive nous he brings more than an attacking threat, plus he does alot of work cleaning and securing rucks.
That said, sadly I think injuries have denied him his best years and AB rugby may well have passed him by now too.
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@taniwharugby said in All Black backline:
@nostrildamus I'd have liked Goodhue to have a run at 12 with Reiko at 13, as above, I think it's the defensive nous he brings more than an attacking threat, plus he does alot of work cleaning and securing rucks.
That said, sadly I think injuries have denied him his best years and AB rugby may well have passed him by now too.
Yes I think that would be good for Rieko but we can't rely on JG as he seems to have a bad injury run.
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@nostrildamus yep, he has Super rugby next year to stake a claim for the RWC, but wouldnt surprise me if he doesnt play for the ABs again.
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“Campo had scored a couple of tries in the first half and we felt we had the measure of Ireland,” said Lynagh. “Mistake. Gordon Hamilton’s try turned the match on its head, a sympathetic bounce of the ball, a slip by Campo and away he went. Ireland were in front and Lansdowne Road was bouncing.
“I’d taken over the captaincy as Nick (Farr-Jones) had gone off injured. I knew I had to come up with something precise and factual. I was determined not to resort to the cliche of, ‘don’t panic, don’t worry’. There were no clocks at the ground so I asked referee Jim Fleming how long there was to go. Four minutes, came the reply. So, that’s what I said to the boys. I stuck to the facts. ‘Four minutes, still time, we’ll kick long from the restart, press, they’ll kick out and we’ll strike from the lineout’. In fact, Nick told me only the other week that he’d have kicked short to contest the ball if he had still be on the field and captain. So, there we are – what might have been.”
What was is that Ireland scrum-half Rob Saunders sliced his clearance, Australia had a lineout around the 22-metre line, David Campese took it up and was on hand later in the sequence but was tackled. Lynagh’s role had been to track play. He swooped and dived over the line.
“There was a deathly silence and I wondered what had happened, maybe that play had been called back and I hadn’t scored,” said Lynagh.
