Foster, Robertson etc
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Weren't you one of the few on here trying to claim previous coaches did worse despite Foster's record being the worst of the professional-era?
I've consistently said Foster inherited big problems which needed time to fix and that would have impacted any coach, but also that he wasn't the man to fix them and should have gone after Ireland III.
But you are missing the point that Foster was central to creating those problems in the first place.
It's well documented that Foster's role was expanded in the last 2-3 years of his Hansen tenure. Foster was given authority over game-plan, strategy, co-ordinating training sessions -- and this coincided with the All Black's decline over Hansen's last few years.
Hansen said it himself that in his final year Foster was effectively running most things as Hansen had transitioned into a much less hands-on role, moving into the background at that stage.
And 2019 was a dire year, that's what happens when you entrust underqualified mates to influential positions.
I really must read Hansen's book again, I know I getting on a bit, but certainly don't recall him saying that Foster took over all these things in coaching group, I must of missed it. I will reread it when I get homto NZ, I sure i must of forgotten some part of it, or you have a vivid imagination.
I’m really confused now. Was Foster running the show or just an assistant with no decent record?
Which one is it? -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Weren't you one of the few on here trying to claim previous coaches did worse despite Foster's record being the worst of the professional-era?
I've consistently said Foster inherited big problems which needed time to fix and that would have impacted any coach, but also that he wasn't the man to fix them and should have gone after Ireland III.
But you are missing the point that Foster was central to creating those problems in the first place.
It's well documented that Foster's role was expanded in the last 2-3 years of his Hansen tenure. Foster was given authority over game-plan, strategy, co-ordinating training sessions -- and this coincided with the All Black's decline over Hansen's last few years.
Hansen said it himself that in his final year Foster was effectively running most things as Hansen had transitioned into a much less hands-on role, moving into the background at that stage.
And 2019 was a dire year, that's what happens when you entrust underqualified mates to influential positions.
I really must read Hansen's book again, I know I getting on a bit, but certainly don't recall him saying that Foster took over all these things in coaching group, I must of missed it. I will reread it when I get homto NZ, I sure i must of forgotten some part of it, or you have a vivid imagination.
I’m really confused now. Was Foster running the show or just an assistant with no decent record?
> Which one is it?Don't be daft. We all know if we'd beaten England and got to the final and/or won it, it would be despite Foster. Foster's only ever involved when things go badly.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial The Irish side we beat 42-16 in the 1st test while Schmidt filled-in for Foster & wasn't involved in the other 2 tests, just a coincidence?
Same Irish side though. One good enough to adjust after the first test and not allow the same game.
You have to at least give the opposing teams credit for beating us. Otherwise it is plain arrogance.
There is no denying that certain teams that have not previously been much chop are currently very good.Although we dropped massively, so did the Irish adjust and improve or was it more we shat the bed in T2 and T3?
I actually think it was a bit of both.
They brought a different picture and we weren’t ready for it.
2nd test was also marred by the loss of Ardie from an officials fuck up and obviously the weird red card.
The result was a loss but don’t forget we had two “tries” disallowed and played a long time with 14
Not excuse but we are talking performance here not results. IMO we performed well enough to win that game but moments denied us.
3rd test we did shit the bed and that one is on the coaches/players/preparation/selectionsAlso the warning signs were very evident in the first test. I remember the Irish making ground at will and from memory they crossed our line a number of times for no reward The score flattered us. A few posters pointed it out at the time.
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@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
No. As I said above, they made parts of the process public knowledge in 2019. They didn't even tell people they were interviewing this year until they are halfway through or possibly finished!
I can understand that. May be poor PR, but it is a sensible approach to keep cards close to the chest after 2019.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial The Irish side we beat 42-16 in the 1st test while Schmidt filled-in for Foster & wasn't involved in the other 2 tests, just a coincidence?
Same Irish side though. One good enough to adjust after the first test and not allow the same game.
You have to at least give the opposing teams credit for beating us. Otherwise it is plain arrogance.
There is no denying that certain teams that have not previously been much chop are currently very good.Although we dropped massively, so did the Irish adjust and improve or was it more we shat the bed in T2 and T3?
I actually think it was a bit of both.
They brought a different picture and we weren’t ready for it.
2nd test was also marred by the loss of Ardie from an officials fuck up and obviously the weird red card.
The result was a loss but don’t forget we had two “tries” disallowed and played a long time with 14
Not excuse but we are talking performance here not results. IMO we performed well enough to win that game but moments denied us.
3rd test we did shit the bed and that one is on the coaches/players/preparation/selectionsAlso the warning signs were very evident in the first test. I remember the Irish making ground at will and from memory they crossed our line a number of times for no reward The score flattered us. A few posters pointed it out at the time.
There was a lot of complacency after that game and I expected a backlash in the next Test. The 3rd Test showed we just didn't have a clue, didn't learn and hadn't moved forward much since 2018/9. We had deep problems and needed a change.
To paraphrase the late, great Irish No.8 Moss Keane: "The second Test was even. The Third Test was even worse"
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Watching the AB7s at the moment and a likely unpopular scenario occurred to me.
I have been quite critical of the AB7s coaching and direction and tactics etc. it was not obvious what they were trying to do to get better and they looked to have slipped well of their pedestal.
The team kept telling us that they knew what to work on and it needed to come together. It was little things not anything major or new.
Low and behold that has happened and currently even with new blood being introduced the other teams are looking very ordinary. We just smashed a Samoa team that has been a thorn in our side for a while.
The parallel is that Fosters side also went through the same disruption and pain. We can’t see what the vision is and where the “new style” will improve things. We are critical of the coaches and senior players. They are telling us that they know what they are trying to do but haven’t got there yet.
Is it just possible that they might get where they are aiming by the RWC? That they know exactly the bits they aren’t achieving and are getting the puzzle pieces together.
The obvious missing piece remaining is at 6. -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Watching the AB7s at the moment and a likely unpopular scenario occurred to me.
I have been quite critical of the AB7s coaching and direction and tactics etc. it was not obvious what they were trying to do to get better and they looked to have slipped well of their pedestal.
The team kept telling us that they knew what to work on and it needed to come together. It was little things not anything major or new.
Low and behold that has happened and currently even with new blood being introduced the other teams are looking very ordinary. We just smashed a Samoa team that has been a thorn in our side for a while.
The parallel is that Fosters side also went through the same disruption and pain. We can’t see what the vision is and where the “new style” will improve things. We are critical of the coaches and senior players. They are telling us that they know what they are trying to do but haven’t got there yet.
Is it just possible that they might get where they are aiming by the RWC? That they know exactly the bits they aren’t achieving and are getting the puzzle pieces together.
The obvious missing piece remaining is at 6.and 10, and possibly 15, and arguably 13.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
No. As I said above, they made parts of the process public knowledge in 2019. They didn't even tell people they were interviewing this year until they are halfway through or possibly finished!
I can understand that. May be poor PR, but it is a sensible approach to keep cards close to the chest after 2019.
I don't see anything to show it is sensible.
Foster seems to have been in the dark, Robertson may have been in the dark, this secrecy seems to have created anger and confusion amongst coaches let alone the public. If they found the best candidates, interviewed them in the best way, and chose the best, yes this is a good approach then. But nobody seems to know. Yet.
I just hope if they did shortlist and talk to candidates, their shortlisting was optimal. It would be tragic if they overlooked a fantastic bolter or someone genuinely excellent but they didn't know that such an outstanding candidate for the head coach was available. . -
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Fair point. But equally I can see merit in making a decision on selecting timing and approach in secret, though, and they aren't responsible for media speculation.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Watching the AB7s at the moment and a likely unpopular scenario occurred to me.
I have been quite critical of the AB7s coaching and direction and tactics etc. it was not obvious what they were trying to do to get better and they looked to have slipped well of their pedestal.
The team kept telling us that they knew what to work on and it needed to come together. It was little things not anything major or new.
Low and behold that has happened and currently even with new blood being introduced the other teams are looking very ordinary. We just smashed a Samoa team that has been a thorn in our side for a while.
The parallel is that Fosters side also went through the same disruption and pain. We can’t see what the vision is and where the “new style” will improve things. We are critical of the coaches and senior players. They are telling us that they know what they are trying to do but haven’t got there yet.
Is it just possible that they might get where they are aiming by the RWC? That they know exactly the bits they aren’t achieving and are getting the puzzle pieces together.
The obvious missing piece remaining is at 6.Well the ABs 7s just shat the bed in the quarters and got dumped out, so yeah I think the ABs are going the same way in the RWC under the current regime
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@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Watching the AB7s at the moment and a likely unpopular scenario occurred to me.
I have been quite critical of the AB7s coaching and direction and tactics etc. it was not obvious what they were trying to do to get better and they looked to have slipped well of their pedestal.
The team kept telling us that they knew what to work on and it needed to come together. It was little things not anything major or new.
Low and behold that has happened and currently even with new blood being introduced the other teams are looking very ordinary. We just smashed a Samoa team that has been a thorn in our side for a while.
The parallel is that Fosters side also went through the same disruption and pain. We can’t see what the vision is and where the “new style” will improve things. We are critical of the coaches and senior players. They are telling us that they know what they are trying to do but haven’t got there yet.
Is it just possible that they might get where they are aiming by the RWC? That they know exactly the bits they aren’t achieving and are getting the puzzle pieces together.
The obvious missing piece remaining is at 6.Well the ABs 7s just shat the bed in the quarters and got dumped out, so yeah I think the ABs are going the same way in the RWC under the current regime
Yeah. Put the jinx on them big time.
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Late to this but I'm 100% with George33. If there's one thing I've learnt from this place, it's that the random guys with shocking Grammer and one line posts always have the best sauce. Looking forward to seeing Schmidt appointed in the coming weeks.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Late to this but I'm 100% with George33. If there's one thing I've learnt from this place, it's that the random guys with shocking Grammer and one line posts always have the best sauce. Looking forward to seeing Schmidt appointed in the coming weeks.
Was that a dig at @BartMan ?
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@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Frank said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@kev said in Blues v Brumbies:
There is no way with the talent they have the Blues should lose a game like that. Is the players or the coaches? Same weaknesses in ABs. In ability to play % and apply pressure. They played their best rugby with 13 when they held the ball.
Same coach killing players that are in the ABs.
But hey, it’s Foster that wrecks them and Rangi will join Razor to put things right……
Try to keep your bitterness to the Foster/Robertson thread you love so much.
Why. It’s a valid observation. Nothing bitter.
When talking AB failings the coach gets the blame.
The same players have just aired their failings in this game at a lower level under a supposedly better coach.
Maybe it’s a pointer to where some of the problems lie?No, it just highlights the obvious to everyone that Rangi's not in the same league as Razor, Leon has developed a star-studded team with such depth that players are attracted to the Blues to merely hold tackle bags yet despite these extraordinary riches in talent they still get by picked-apart by Razor's tactics when it matters.
Yesterday Rangi's Blues looked as they did in the Grand final last season - soft, error-prone, and lacking a coherent plan. If the opposition doesn't hand it to them then they don't seem to know how to win.
Leon still hasn't anything in 5 seasons with a consistent stable squad - with core players retained & quality of depth improved upon each season, and there's also been very little defections making his job a lot easier.
If the All Blacks don't hire Razor the Blues should back up the truck for the superior coach...
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@kiwi_expat said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Frank said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@kev said in Blues v Brumbies:
There is no way with the talent they have the Blues should lose a game like that. Is the players or the coaches? Same weaknesses in ABs. In ability to play % and apply pressure. They played their best rugby with 13 when they held the ball.
Same coach killing players that are in the ABs.
But hey, it’s Foster that wrecks them and Rangi will join Razor to put things right……
Try to keep your bitterness to the Foster/Robertson thread you love so much.
Why. It’s a valid observation. Nothing bitter.
When talking AB failings the coach gets the blame.
The same players have just aired their failings in this game at a lower level under a supposedly better coach.
Maybe it’s a pointer to where some of the problems lie?No, it just proves Rangi's not in the same league as Razor, Leon has developed a star-studded team with such depth that players are attracted to the Blues to merely hold tackle bags yet despite these extraordinary riches in talent they still get by picked-apart by Razor's tactics when it counts.
Yesterday Rangi's Blues looked as they did in the Grand final last season - soft, error-prone, and lacking a coherent plan. If the opposition doesn't hand it to them then they don't seem to know how to win. Leon still hasn't anything in 5 seasons with a core of excellent squad retained & it's quality of depth improved each season, and there's also been very little defections making his job a lot easier.
If the All Blacks don't hire Razor the Blues should back up the truck for the superior coach.
So why does Razor rate him high enough to be an assistant (if the stories are true?)
Rangi isn't a poor coach he just doesn't have the same abilities in planning a season tactically.
My point was more that Rangi can't fix the problems that the players show at Super level. The same problems show up at test level.
Plenty of AB player failings from Razor's mob as well. How long has he had Ennor? How long did he not improve the line breaking ability of Bridge?
I guess that I am pointing the finger at the player problems and wondering why the AB coach cops the blame when they revert to type but at this level they get the blame and the coach gets a free ride because he's still developing them? -
@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@kiwi_expat said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Frank said in Blues v Brumbies:
@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
@kev said in Blues v Brumbies:
There is no way with the talent they have the Blues should lose a game like that. Is the players or the coaches? Same weaknesses in ABs. In ability to play % and apply pressure. They played their best rugby with 13 when they held the ball.
Same coach killing players that are in the ABs.
But hey, it’s Foster that wrecks them and Rangi will join Razor to put things right……
Try to keep your bitterness to the Foster/Robertson thread you love so much.
Why. It’s a valid observation. Nothing bitter.
When talking AB failings the coach gets the blame.
The same players have just aired their failings in this game at a lower level under a supposedly better coach.
Maybe it’s a pointer to where some of the problems lie?No, it just proves Rangi's not in the same league as Razor, Leon has developed a star-studded team with such depth that players are attracted to the Blues to merely hold tackle bags yet despite these extraordinary riches in talent they still get by picked-apart by Razor's tactics when it counts.
Yesterday Rangi's Blues looked as they did in the Grand final last season - soft, error-prone, and lacking a coherent plan. If the opposition doesn't hand it to them then they don't seem to know how to win. Leon still hasn't anything in 5 seasons with a core of excellent squad retained & it's quality of depth improved each season, and there's also been very little defections making his job a lot easier.
If the All Blacks don't hire Razor the Blues should back up the truck for the superior coach.
So why does Razor rate him high enough to be an assistant (if the stories are true?)
assistant coach requires a different set of skills than that of a head coach.
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@Crucial said in Blues v Brumbies:
Plenty of AB player failings from Razor's mob as well. How long has he had Ennor? How long did he not improve the line breaking ability of Bridge?
Why would Razor be blamed for the physical limitations of individual players?
The goal is to make the team greater than the sum of it's parts, by implementing a gameplan that utilizes his player's skill-sets in the most optimal way.
Razor has won titles while getting the best out of players like Bridge, Ennor, Havili.
