Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So if Fozz won the RWC, and no one had been appointed for 2024, you don't think there was any chance he would be extended?
There is always a chance, but I don't believe it would happen. Foster will have been involved with the ABs in some capacity for 12 years. He'll get to do his 4 years as a head coach, including a RWC. That said, he will prefer to leave as a RWC-winning coach (as we all would).
NZR have also learnt from their past mistakes/lack of planning so there will be some certainty for all parties.
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster was never going to continue after the RWC, regardless of the outcome. I expect a refresh of the management too, including Darren Shand.
So if Fozz won the RWC, and no one had been appointed for 2024, you don't think there was any chance he would be extended?
If he does well in RWC2023, wouldn't be surprised if NZR try to extend his tenure for a year or two, either as Head or Assistant, while his replacement is eased in - NZR rates continuity highly.
But as @Bovidae suggests, he'd probably say "Fuck it, I'm off"
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If he does well in RWC2023
Wonder what NZRU definition of "does well" means.
It is win it, or merely exceeding the lowered expectations (which Foster has had a direct hand in lowering)?
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
Personally ,I think Jamie Joseph if he actually applies, would have inside running, just a hunch.
@Nepia said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
Oh fuck, is this where this thread is going to pivot to now? We're doomed.
Of course it's going to morph into this!
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Wonder what NZRU definition of "does well" means.
Dunno, you'd have to ask them. I'm simply pointing out that NZR appear to see continuity as a virtue and that may well influence decisions and timing.
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@Kirwan In their books McCaw and Carter were both full of praise for coach Blackadder and everyone who knows him personally will tell you that he's a genuinely awesome human being & incredibly caring guy, so clearly they wouldn't have a bad word to say about him, but likeability or simply being a great bloke has absolutely nothing to do with coaching ability.
The most successful coaches are typically uncompromising abrasive characters because they can make ruthless decisions dispassionately in order to do what's ultimately best for the team (compare this to Foster who attempted to appease everyone, particularly senior players past their best such as Moody, Laulala, Taylor, Cane, Ta'avoa, Karl T, etc.. much to the detriment of the team - this only changed once Schmidt & Ryan were brought in) and the level of determination, focus & drive required to be so ruthlessly effective at the top-level means that empathy often has to be put aside - see Erasmus, Jones, Schmidt, White, etc.. they all invariably put people offside during their international tenures due to their highly intense and driven personalities.
It's such a blindingly common situation to see in work places where the boss isn't doing a great job, but the staff they employed feel loyalty to him or her. Evidently, this is the current predication with Foster. I would put very little faith in formal interviews of employees. The Crusaders players always spoke fondly of Blackadder and he got positive reviews from their internal reviews each season.
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
I think it should be Razor's turn. Not just the results, the way he seems to manage his teams. Clear instructions, defined roles, attention to detail. And one of his assistants has already shown he is world class
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kirwan In their books McCaw and Carter were both full of praise for coach Blackadder and everyone who knows him personally will tell you that he's a genuinely awesome human being & incredibly caring guy, so clearly they wouldn't have a bad word to say about him, but likeability or simply being a great bloke has absolutely nothing to do with coaching ability.
The most successful coaches are typically uncompromising abrasive characters because they can make ruthless decisions dispassionately in order to do what's ultimately best for the team (compare this to Foster who attempted to appease everyone, particularly senior players past their best such as Moody, Laulala, Taylor, Cane, Ta'avoa, Karl T, etc.. much to the detriment of the team - this only changed once Schmidt & Ryan were brought in) and the level of determination, focus & drive required to be so ruthlessly effective at the top-level means that empathy often has to be put aside - see Erasmus, Jones, Schmidt, White, etc.. they all invariably put people offside during their international tenures due to their highly intense and driven personalities.
It's such a blindingly common situation to see in work places where the boss isn't doing a great job, but the staff they employed feel loyalty to him or her. Evidently, this is the current predication with Foster. I would put very little faith in formal interviews of employees. The Crusaders players always spoke fondly of Blackadder and he got positive reviews from their internal reviews each season.
Conversely, see Wayne Smith
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kirwan In their books McCaw and Carter were both full of praise for coach Blackadder and everyone who knows him personally will tell you that he's a genuinely awesome human being & incredibly caring guy, so clearly they wouldn't have a bad word to say about him, but likeability or simply being a great bloke has absolutely nothing to do with coaching ability.
The most successful coaches are typically uncompromising abrasive characters because they can make ruthless decisions dispassionately in order to do what's ultimately best for the team (compare this to Foster who attempted to appease everyone, particularly senior players past their best such as Moody, Laulala, Taylor, Cane, Ta'avoa, Karl T, etc.. much to the detriment of the team - this only changed once Schmidt & Ryan were brought in) and the level of determination, focus & drive required to be so ruthlessly effective at the top-level means that empathy often has to be put aside - see Erasmus, Jones, Schmidt, White, etc.. they all invariably put people offside during their international tenures due to their highly intense and driven personalities.
It's such a blindingly common situation to see in work places where the boss isn't doing a great job, but the staff they employed feel loyalty to him or her. Evidently, this is the current predication with Foster. I would put very little faith in formal interviews of employees. The Crusaders players always spoke fondly of Blackadder and he got positive reviews from their internal reviews each season.
Don't disagree, it's why Henry and also Hanson were so successful.
I was responding to the line of thought that the players commented favourably doesn't mean anything. If they didn't think he was a good coach they would just say nothing. Quite a few players went hard on the opposite of that and were very vocal.
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And conversaly I remember Bryn Hall saying he thought Razor was a great coach, I take it he truthfully thought Razor was a bloody good coach, not just a nice fella.
Was on Aotearoa rugby pod, said how good Razor was in finding ways to fire up players etc, having a theme for games. -
@Dan54 guess it depends what they are asked, I certainly feel it would be easy to differentiate between a coach being a good guy and a coach being a good coach.
I know from when I was coaching teens, we had an ex NZ rep at trainings sometimes, he was an abrasive type fella, but the kids listened to him deliver the same message we did, but he did so different and got a better response from them.
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
I assume NZR will prioritize the variety of experience Joseph & Brown have accumulated with Japan as opposed to results.
While Jamie has done a good job with Japan, context is important, despite having a much stronger player-pool than Eddie did & a significant amount of better foreign talent available performances have been getting worse - with an objectively superior team compared to what Eddie had available. Since Eddie left a lot of money & resources have been poured into the national side, today Jamie has roughly 2/3rd's of his squad as overseas players and significantly bigger overseas born forwards available to him, which Eddie did not. If you look at the state of the team they inherited and where they've gone it shows that Eddie developed the team to a point of difference whereas Jamie has not really progressed them further. Jones' win-rate with Japan was 67%, Jamie's is currently hovering around 50%.
I do not think NZR will take any of this into account because it's all about the experience and the journey to them. I expect Joseph to be appointed regardless of any other considerations simply because of the international experience 'tag' that he carries.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 guess it depends what they are asked, I certainly feel it would be easy to differentiate between a coach being a good guy and a coach being a good coach.
I know from when I was coaching teens, we had an ex NZ rep at trainings sometimes, he was an abrasive type fella, but the kids listened to him deliver the same message we did, but he did so different and got a better response from them.
Yep well like Sam W, RMo and the ABs, he wasn't actually asked anything, was just giving his opinion when they were discussing AB coach.
And know sometimes an abrasive voice is good etc, especially from someone with AB experience for teens. Hell we had Buck take a coaching session at my club in Aus and they(well kiwiw boys anyway) were wrapt and really hung on every word -
@kiwi_expat So you actually know what NZR's criteria is?
I would add I honestly believe the NZR will as always appoint the man they rightly or wrongly believe has the skills and experience to do job. I not sure why you comparing Eddie Jones and JJ records, as JJ started with a new team, and Eddie isn't standing for AB's job. And do they say winning super rugby is more important than bringing up a team to 5th place in World cup, who knows, not me anyway.
I will be pretty happy with whoever get's job as it will be selected by I guessing people who know more than me about applicants. -
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I honestly believe the NZR will as always appoint the man they rightly or wrongly believe has the skills and experience to do job.
I think you may be the one person on here that sincerely believes that.
And do they say winning super rugby is more important than bringing up a team to 5th place in World cup, who knows, not me anyway.
Our aim is to world cups, I want a coach who is known for getting his team across the line consistently in knock-out matches.
Jamie Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
In his 6 seasons, the Highlanders finished 11th, 9th, 14th, 5th, 1st, 5th. 53% win-rate.
Not a bad record, but not particularly outstanding either.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I honestly believe the NZR will as always appoint the man they rightly or wrongly believe has the skills and experience to do job.
I think you may be the one person on here that sincerely believes that.
And do they say winning super rugby is more important than bringing up a team to 5th place in World cup, who knows, not me anyway.
Our aim is to world cups, I want a coach who is known for getting his team across the line consistently in knock-out matches.
Jamie Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
In his 6 seasons, the Highlanders finished 11th, 9th, 14th, 5th, 1st, 5th. 53% win-rate.
Not a bad record, but not particularly outstanding either.
Fake news. Dixon never scored that try.
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@MN5 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I honestly believe the NZR will as always appoint the man they rightly or wrongly believe has the skills and experience to do job.
I think you may be the one person on here that sincerely believes that.
And do they say winning super rugby is more important than bringing up a team to 5th place in World cup, who knows, not me anyway.
Our aim is to world cups, I want a coach who is known for getting his team across the line consistently in knock-out matches.
Jamie Joseph had arguably the best NPC team at Wellington for multiple seasons and they could never get across the line at the end when it really mattered and claim titles. They had arguably the best talent coming through in most positions.
In his 6 seasons, the Highlanders finished 11th, 9th, 14th, 5th, 1st, 5th. 53% win-rate.
Not a bad record, but not particularly outstanding either.
Fake news. Dixon never scored that try.
We was robbed
