Foster, Robertson etc
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Looks like Foster is a lame duck, be funny if he won the RWC. I'd be more than happy - esp as he won't come back after and RWC is not everything. He's crapped all over the legacy with poor performances in between, that's enough to say thanks for the cup - cya
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@Machpants said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Looks like Foster is a lame duck, be funny if he won the RWC. I'd be more than happy - esp as he won't come back after and RWC is not everything. He's crapped all over the legacy with poor performances in between, that's enough to say thanks for the cup - cya
I like it. Get clarity ASAP. The players will still want to win a RWC and so will Fozz and his coaches
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@Stargazer said in Foster, Robertson etc:
IMO too much has been made of players openly supporting Foster. Of course they support the current coach, especially if it's a nice guy. That doesn't mean they think he's the best coach and that there aren't better options available. They just won't say that out loud (publically).
I can't wait for the player biographies that will come out after they've retired!
I suspect that the players would just say nothing if they didn't support the coach, some of the players have been pretty vocal with their support (Richie Mounga is one example).
Some fans a pretty feral about their dislike of Foster, but he seems popular with the players.
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@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster was never going to continue after the RWC, regardless of the outcome. I expect a refresh of the management too, including Darren Shand.
Yep and strong rumour he has or never has intention of standing again, but it's good that they don't say much let's all the ones frothing at the mouth keep on , and not find someone else to have a go at!
Mind you there no rugby on at moment (in NZ) so keeps a few entertained. -
@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster was never going to continue after the RWC, regardless of the outcome. I expect a refresh of the management too, including Darren Shand.
So if Fozz won the RWC, and no one had been appointed for 2024, you don't think there was any chance he would be extended?
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So if Fozz won the RWC, and no one had been appointed for 2024, you don't think there was any chance he would be extended?
There is always a chance, but I don't believe it would happen. Foster will have been involved with the ABs in some capacity for 12 years. He'll get to do his 4 years as a head coach, including a RWC. That said, he will prefer to leave as a RWC-winning coach (as we all would).
NZR have also learnt from their past mistakes/lack of planning so there will be some certainty for all parties.
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bovidae said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster was never going to continue after the RWC, regardless of the outcome. I expect a refresh of the management too, including Darren Shand.
So if Fozz won the RWC, and no one had been appointed for 2024, you don't think there was any chance he would be extended?
If he does well in RWC2023, wouldn't be surprised if NZR try to extend his tenure for a year or two, either as Head or Assistant, while his replacement is eased in - NZR rates continuity highly.
But as @Bovidae suggests, he'd probably say "Fuck it, I'm off"
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If he does well in RWC2023
Wonder what NZRU definition of "does well" means.
It is win it, or merely exceeding the lowered expectations (which Foster has had a direct hand in lowering)?
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
Personally ,I think Jamie Joseph if he actually applies, would have inside running, just a hunch.
@Nepia said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
Oh fuck, is this where this thread is going to pivot to now? We're doomed.
Of course it's going to morph into this!
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@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Wonder what NZRU definition of "does well" means.
Dunno, you'd have to ask them. I'm simply pointing out that NZR appear to see continuity as a virtue and that may well influence decisions and timing.
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@Kirwan In their books McCaw and Carter were both full of praise for coach Blackadder and everyone who knows him personally will tell you that he's a genuinely awesome human being & incredibly caring guy, so clearly they wouldn't have a bad word to say about him, but likeability or simply being a great bloke has absolutely nothing to do with coaching ability.
The most successful coaches are typically uncompromising abrasive characters because they can make ruthless decisions dispassionately in order to do what's ultimately best for the team (compare this to Foster who attempted to appease everyone, particularly senior players past their best such as Moody, Laulala, Taylor, Cane, Ta'avoa, Karl T, etc.. much to the detriment of the team - this only changed once Schmidt & Ryan were brought in) and the level of determination, focus & drive required to be so ruthlessly effective at the top-level means that empathy often has to be put aside - see Erasmus, Jones, Schmidt, White, etc.. they all invariably put people offside during their international tenures due to their highly intense and driven personalities.
It's such a blindingly common situation to see in work places where the boss isn't doing a great job, but the staff they employed feel loyalty to him or her. Evidently, this is the current predication with Foster. I would put very little faith in formal interviews of employees. The Crusaders players always spoke fondly of Blackadder and he got positive reviews from their internal reviews each season.
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
I think it should be Razor's turn. Not just the results, the way he seems to manage his teams. Clear instructions, defined roles, attention to detail. And one of his assistants has already shown he is world class
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kirwan In their books McCaw and Carter were both full of praise for coach Blackadder and everyone who knows him personally will tell you that he's a genuinely awesome human being & incredibly caring guy, so clearly they wouldn't have a bad word to say about him, but likeability or simply being a great bloke has absolutely nothing to do with coaching ability.
The most successful coaches are typically uncompromising abrasive characters because they can make ruthless decisions dispassionately in order to do what's ultimately best for the team (compare this to Foster who attempted to appease everyone, particularly senior players past their best such as Moody, Laulala, Taylor, Cane, Ta'avoa, Karl T, etc.. much to the detriment of the team - this only changed once Schmidt & Ryan were brought in) and the level of determination, focus & drive required to be so ruthlessly effective at the top-level means that empathy often has to be put aside - see Erasmus, Jones, Schmidt, White, etc.. they all invariably put people offside during their international tenures due to their highly intense and driven personalities.
It's such a blindingly common situation to see in work places where the boss isn't doing a great job, but the staff they employed feel loyalty to him or her. Evidently, this is the current predication with Foster. I would put very little faith in formal interviews of employees. The Crusaders players always spoke fondly of Blackadder and he got positive reviews from their internal reviews each season.
Conversely, see Wayne Smith
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kirwan In their books McCaw and Carter were both full of praise for coach Blackadder and everyone who knows him personally will tell you that he's a genuinely awesome human being & incredibly caring guy, so clearly they wouldn't have a bad word to say about him, but likeability or simply being a great bloke has absolutely nothing to do with coaching ability.
The most successful coaches are typically uncompromising abrasive characters because they can make ruthless decisions dispassionately in order to do what's ultimately best for the team (compare this to Foster who attempted to appease everyone, particularly senior players past their best such as Moody, Laulala, Taylor, Cane, Ta'avoa, Karl T, etc.. much to the detriment of the team - this only changed once Schmidt & Ryan were brought in) and the level of determination, focus & drive required to be so ruthlessly effective at the top-level means that empathy often has to be put aside - see Erasmus, Jones, Schmidt, White, etc.. they all invariably put people offside during their international tenures due to their highly intense and driven personalities.
It's such a blindingly common situation to see in work places where the boss isn't doing a great job, but the staff they employed feel loyalty to him or her. Evidently, this is the current predication with Foster. I would put very little faith in formal interviews of employees. The Crusaders players always spoke fondly of Blackadder and he got positive reviews from their internal reviews each season.
Don't disagree, it's why Henry and also Hanson were so successful.
I was responding to the line of thought that the players commented favourably doesn't mean anything. If they didn't think he was a good coach they would just say nothing. Quite a few players went hard on the opposite of that and were very vocal.
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And conversaly I remember Bryn Hall saying he thought Razor was a great coach, I take it he truthfully thought Razor was a bloody good coach, not just a nice fella.
Was on Aotearoa rugby pod, said how good Razor was in finding ways to fire up players etc, having a theme for games. -
@Dan54 guess it depends what they are asked, I certainly feel it would be easy to differentiate between a coach being a good guy and a coach being a good coach.
I know from when I was coaching teens, we had an ex NZ rep at trainings sometimes, he was an abrasive type fella, but the kids listened to him deliver the same message we did, but he did so different and got a better response from them.
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@sparky said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So who has the inside running for the ABs' job Jamie Joseph or Razor Robertson?
I assume NZR will prioritize the variety of experience Joseph & Brown have accumulated with Japan as opposed to results.
While Jamie has done a good job with Japan, context is important, despite having a much stronger player-pool than Eddie did & a significant amount of better foreign talent available performances have been getting worse - with an objectively superior team compared to what Eddie had available. Since Eddie left a lot of money & resources have been poured into the national side, today Jamie has roughly 2/3rd's of his squad as overseas players and significantly bigger overseas born forwards available to him, which Eddie did not. If you look at the state of the team they inherited and where they've gone it shows that Eddie developed the team to a point of difference whereas Jamie has not really progressed them further. Jones' win-rate with Japan was 67%, Jamie's is currently hovering around 50%.
I do not think NZR will take any of this into account because it's all about the experience and the journey to them. I expect Joseph to be appointed regardless of any other considerations simply because of the international experience 'tag' that he carries.
