Foster, Robertson etc
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Not sure why people are posting Razor is selfish and entitled.
Every major international coaching Job will be locked in before the WC and coaches need to take opportunities before there is none left.
Rennie has also said the same thing to the Australian RU he needs to know by May if they are interested in him after the WC.
Joseph,Brown,Jones will all be locked in somewhere mid 2023.
Only the NZR expect all the top coaches to sit and wait until after the WC and decline other jobs just in case the get the call.For me it is a pretty scary scenario if a Coach like Razor is not given any indication by the NZR if he is wanted or not and Ends up as England coach where he has the most money and Resources in World Rugby backing him.
As for he needs the right set up around him, Jason Ryan,Scott Hansen had no major coaching experience but really grew under Razor at Canterbury and the Crusaders,Andrew Goodman too came as Assistant coach at Ta$man no real experience,O'Gara also had not a lot of Coaching under his belt before coming to coach under Razor.
And came away saying the learnt a lot under Razor and it changed his thinking patterns as a Coach,Plenty of articles quoting O'Gara saying these things.
Tamiti Ellison another one who seems to have grown as coach under Razor.Just maybe Razor is a great mentor for young coaches as well as being a great winning coach.
If this current coaching team fail at the WC which is a real possibility the AB's will be left with who McDonald who has won nothing and has no international coaching experience which apparently is paramount in some peoples eyes.
Or Foster for 4 more years or Schmidt who if the don't have a great WC would not be a great option,
But I suppose there is always Fred from the local u12 team ready to jump in.Yup. The fact that we credit Jason Ryan for much of the ABs recent improvement says something about Razor's ability to build a coaching team doesn't it?
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Not sure why people are posting Razor is selfish and entitled.
Every major international coaching Job will be locked in before the WC and coaches need to take opportunities before there is none left.
Rennie has also said the same thing to the Australian RU he needs to know by May if they are interested in him after the WC.
Joseph,Brown,Jones will all be locked in somewhere mid 2023.
Only the NZR expect all the top coaches to sit and wait until after the WC and decline other jobs just in case the get the call.For me it is a pretty scary scenario if a Coach like Razor is not given any indication by the NZR if he is wanted or not and Ends up as England coach where he has the most money and Resources in World Rugby backing him.
As for he needs the right set up around him, Jason Ryan,Scott Hansen had no major coaching experience but really grew under Razor at Canterbury and the Crusaders,Andrew Goodman too came as Assistant coach at Ta$man no real experience,O'Gara also had not a lot of Coaching under his belt before coming to coach under Razor.
And came away saying the learnt a lot under Razor and it changed his thinking patterns as a Coach,Plenty of articles quoting O'Gara saying these things.
Tamiti Ellison another one who seems to have grown as coach under Razor.Just maybe Razor is a great mentor for young coaches as well as being a great winning coach.
If this current coaching team fail at the WC which is a real possibility the AB's will be left with who McDonald who has won nothing and has no international coaching experience which apparently is paramount in some peoples eyes.
Or Foster for 4 more years or Schmidt who if the don't have a great WC would not be a great option,
But I suppose there is always Fred from the local u12 team ready to jump in.Yup. The fact that we credit Jason Ryan for much of the ABs recent improvement says something about Razor's ability to build a coaching team doesn't it?
Yeah it really does.
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I find the thinking of the various unions around the world cup to be very fucking old fashioned, and in the main poor governance with regards to high performance.
A four-yearly tournament with a heap of variables should in no way determine your thinking around your head guy in a true high-performance environment.
It's different if you want your current guy to be your coach, but he's said he's out after the Cup, then no worries (though there should absolutely be some handover with the next guy you want).
But in the main that is not what happens. Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?And i believe it goes the other way as well. If you don't think he's the right guy, why give him the Cup? Get rid even a couple of months out. If you don't think he's the right guy, will a new guy be worse?
Of course employment law muddies the water a bit, but contract lengths exist for a reason. Hypothetically speaking, if Foster is not your guy, BUT he's not failing enough to trigger the right clauses in the contract, then make your move now for who gets the gig in 12 months.
This post got a bit muddied as i typed it, i just think the way Unions operate around decision making and the World Cup is fucking stupid, and not conducive to high performance over the rest of the "cycle".
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@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I find the thinking of the various unions around the world cup to be very fucking old fashioned, and in the main poor governance with regards to high performance.
A four-yearly tournament with a heap of variables should in no way determine your thinking around your head guy in a true high-performance environment.
It's different if you want your current guy to be your coach, but he's said he's out after the Cup, then no worries (though there should absolutely be some handover with the next guy you want).
But in the main that is not what happens. Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?And i believe it goes the other way as well. If you don't think he's the right guy, why give him the Cup? Get rid even a couple of months out. If you don't think he's the right guy, will a new guy be worse?
Of course employment law muddies the water a bit, but contract lengths exist for a reason. Hypothetically speaking, if Foster is not your guy, BUT he's not failing enough to trigger the right clauses in the contract, then make your move now for who gets the gig in 12 months.
This post got a bit muddied as i typed it, i just think the way Unions operate around decision making and the World Cup is fucking stupid, and not conducive to high performance over the rest of the "cycle".
I can't say I disagree but it is the way coaching appointments are structured these days.
I just had my contract renewed by Queensland cricket for u/19s it is base on KPIs for the State Championships if we don't achieve a top 4 finish we fail one of the major KPIs so the appointment is structured on one Tournament not on the growth of the players in the squad in Premier cricket and beyond but how well they do in a 2 week tournament. -
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
at that time had he not already won more things as head coach than fozzie? we use the term "entitled" as a bad thing...but he is pretty close to being entitled in the literal sense, winning at the two levels below makes someone pretty close to actually being entitled to being considered for the next level, IMO
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@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him . -
@Chris like Brown (before having his arm twisted) have to respect those that know what theyre good at
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .My understanding was the questin put to him was 'are you the best man for the job?' and his response was basically 'I think so, but if there's someone better good luck to them'.
Point being he's a legendarily good coach, just transformed the Black Ferns, long history - but his style is not the infallible leader
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris like Brown (before having his arm twisted) have to respect those that know what theyre good at
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris like Brown (before having his arm twisted) have to respect those that know what theyre good at
Exactly if you don’t back yourself you normally fail.
I think Foster has always said he rates himself as a coach in different ways and so he should he has to I instill confidence in those around him he is the man for the job.
No one will follow someone who shows doubt about their abilities. -
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .My understanding was the questin put to him was 'are you the best man for the job?' and his response was basically 'I think so, but if there's someone better good luck to them'.
Point being he's a legendarily good coach, just transformed the Black Ferns, long history - but his style is not the infallible leader
A different personality it works for him, but everyone has a different character ,You use the best traits you have to get the best out of yourself.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
A different personality it works for him, but everyone has a different character ,You use the best traits you have to get the best out of yourself.
I agree with your second point -it was the first I responded to.
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@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
Still, you can only beat what is in front of you, but I think his intransigence does display a sense of entitlement.
Part of me also questions if the Crusaders record since he took over says at least as much about Todd Blackadder as it does Scott Robertson. He wasn't exactly required to build a team. Inherited a squad laden with current and future AB's.
NB You can think he has a sense of entitlement and still believe he should have the coach's job.
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Sometimes people forget what Razor managed to do at the start of his Crusaders tenure with a very raw squad. The team had lost Carter, McCaw, Read, Nadolo, Dagg, Crotty and Ellis (along with a few less well known stars). Most pundits expected a slow rebuild but he managed to build a winning team from players who on paper shouldn't have been ready. Since then we know that he is very skilled at motivating players, building campaigns with focus and strategy and thinking outside the box, for example there were a few eyebrows raised when he convinced ROG to join him, same when he recruited Matera (NZ tends to be more insular). These are skills that translate to any level IMO (Innovation, strategic thinking, good personnel manager).
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Part of me also questions if the Crusaders record since he took over says at least as much about Todd Blackadder as it does Scott Robertson. He wasn't exactly required to build a team. Inherited a squad laden with current and future AB's.
Well he has built teams since an introduced Newell,Williams,Gallagher ,Jordan etc and has built the Crusaders Academy which was floundering under Blackadder.
He did have a squad in his first year with Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown,Leon Fukofuka,Tim Bateman,Sione Fifita,Tim Perry, Mitchell Hunt, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt,Jone Macilai and a crapped out Digby Ioane exactly world beaters
as to call it an inherited a squad with 10 current AB's that year but in comparison the Canes had 9 AB's the Chiefs had 9 and the Blues had 9 Highlanders had 8.
That is total AB's through the June tests,RC and Northern Tour.So the AB's were pretty spread through out the squads in Razors first year.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Part of me also questions if the Crusaders record since he took over says at least as much about Todd Blackadder as it does Scott Robertson. He wasn't exactly required to build a team. Inherited a squad laden with current and future AB's.
is that fair? blackadder didn't win with the same squad...and the squad he has now isnt the same as the one to inherited and is still winning so he developed that
i admit my bias might be coming into this....kind of hoping if the AB picked up razor the crusaders might start stumbling.....;)
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Sometimes people forget what Razor managed to do at the start of his Crusaders tenure with a very raw squad. The team had lost Carter, McCaw, Read, Nadolo, Dagg, Crotty and Ellis (along with a few less well known stars). Most pundits expected a slow rebuild but he managed to build a winning team from players who on paper shouldn't have been ready. Since then we know that he is very skilled at motivating players, building campaigns with focus and strategy and thinking outside the box, for example there were a few eyebrows raised when he convinced ROG to join him, same when he recruited Matera (NZ tends to be more insular). These are skills that translate to any level IMO (Innovation, strategic thinking, good personnel manager).
dont think this matches up with your post
crusaders 2017 squadForwards: Michael Alaalatoa, Wyatt Crockett, Oliver Jager, Joe Moody, Tim Perry, Owen Franks, Ben Funnell, Andrew Makalio, Codie Taylor, Scott Barrett, Luke Romano, Quinten Strange, Sam Whitelock, Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Mitchell Dunshea, Kieran Read, Pete Samu, Jordan Taufua, Matt Todd.
Backs: Mitchell Drummond, Leon Fukofuka, Bryn Hall, Tim Bateman, Marty McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty, Jack Goodhue, David Havili, Seta Tamanivalu, Sean Wainui, George Bridge, Israel Dagg, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Digby Ioane, Jone Macilai, Manasa Mataele.
Good: The midfield looks stronger with Jack Goodhue, Seta Tamanivalu and Tim Bateman handy additions to join Ryan Crotty. Promising young forwards Mitch Dunshea and Andrew Makalio bolster the pack.
Bad: It remains to be seen if veteran ex-Wallaby Digby Ioane can fill the massive void left by Nemani Nadolo.
In: Bateman (Japan), Ioane (Japan), Tamanivalu (Chiefs), Hall (Blues), Jager (Canterbury), Makalio ( Ta$man), Strange ( Ta$man), Bedwell-Curtis (Manawatu), Dunshea (Canterbury), Goodhue (Canterbury), Brown (Canterbury), Bridge (Canterbury), Mataele (Taranaki).
Out: Johnny McNicholl (Wales), Nemani Nadolo (France), Alex Hodgman (Blues), Jimmy Tupou (Blues), Tim Boys (released), Kieron Fonotia (Wales), Andrew Ellis (Japan), Reed Prinsep (Hurricanes), Robbie Fruean (England), Ben Volavola (released), Ged Robinson (retired).
2019 Super Rugby final - Wikipedia