Foster, Robertson etc
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 reality smeality... still has a better record!
Lol mate, better record than who? I not sure what your point is, you giving him credit for beating Leon MacDonald coached team, but shrugging your shoulders when his team gets absolutely flogged againt Harlequins.
Harlequins was labelled a friendly and didn't seem to have the same coaching effort as opposed to against say NZ XV.
And the lack of media attention seems to agree with me.
I don't shrug my shoulders Ireland A and Z XV were the targets IMHO to gauge the coaching. Not shrugged shoulders.
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@Crucial SR applied for AB coach job and says it is still his preference. His workon allegedly is int. experience and England scouts think he is worthy candidate. He has coached and won at the Crusaders six times?
I don't see what is selfish.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one.
I'm not so sure it even falls in that category.
He has achieved all he can for the Crusaders, bar 'just another' title, so he is wanting to take the next step, which for him is International rugby which will present a new challenge.
Most workplaces have people who are happy in thier roles with no desire for advancement, while you will always have those keen to advance, improve and challenge themselves.
Would also be odd if other International teams are keen on Razor with his current experience level, yet if NZR were to cite his lack of International experience as an issue....
As above, I really hope NZR have actually starting thier process now, contacting possible candidates of the upcoming role.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.im not sure its that cut and dry, fozzie wasn;t originally signed through to the next WRC, and then even after being resigned there was a review, so those things along with the average performances over the years (a few first ever losses), i dont think he would be out of line thinking he had to be close
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Not sure why people are posting Razor is selfish and entitled.
Every major international coaching Job will be locked in before the WC and coaches need to take opportunities before there is none left.
Rennie has also said the same thing to the Australian RU he needs to know by May if they are interested in him after the WC.
Joseph,Brown,Jones will all be locked in somewhere mid 2023.
Only the NZR expect all the top coaches to sit and wait until after the WC and decline other jobs just in case the get the call.For me it is a pretty scary scenario if a Coach like Razor is not given any indication by the NZR if he is wanted or not and Ends up as England coach where he has the most money and Resources in World Rugby backing him.
As for he needs the right set up around him, Jason Ryan,Scott Hansen had no major coaching experience but really grew under Razor at Canterbury and the Crusaders,Andrew Goodman too came as Assistant coach at Ta$man no real experience,O'Gara also had not a lot of Coaching under his belt before coming to coach under Razor.
And came away saying the learnt a lot under Razor and it changed his thinking patterns as a Coach,Plenty of articles quoting O'Gara saying these things.
Tamiti Ellison another one who seems to have grown as coach under Razor.Just maybe Razor is a great mentor for young coaches as well as being a great winning coach.
If this current coaching team fail at the WC which is a real possibility the AB's will be left with who McDonald who has won nothing and has no international coaching experience which apparently is paramount in some peoples eyes.
Or Foster for 4 more years or Schmidt who if the don't have a great WC would not be a great option,
But I suppose there is always Fred from the local u12 team ready to jump in. -
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Not sure why people are posting Razor is selfish and entitled.
Every major international coaching Job will be locked in before the WC and coaches need to take opportunities before there is none left.
Rennie has also said the same thing to the Australian RU he needs to know by May if they are interested in him after the WC.
Joseph,Brown,Jones will all be locked in somewhere mid 2023.
Only the NZR expect all the top coaches to sit and wait until after the WC and decline other jobs just in case the get the call.For me it is a pretty scary scenario if a Coach like Razor is not given any indication by the NZR if he is wanted or not and Ends up as England coach where he has the most money and Resources in World Rugby backing him.
As for he needs the right set up around him, Jason Ryan,Scott Hansen had no major coaching experience but really grew under Razor at Canterbury and the Crusaders,Andrew Goodman too came as Assistant coach at Ta$man no real experience,O'Gara also had not a lot of Coaching under his belt before coming to coach under Razor.
And came away saying the learnt a lot under Razor and it changed his thinking patterns as a Coach,Plenty of articles quoting O'Gara saying these things.
Tamiti Ellison another one who seems to have grown as coach under Razor.Just maybe Razor is a great mentor for young coaches as well as being a great winning coach.
If this current coaching team fail at the WC which is a real possibility the AB's will be left with who McDonald who has won nothing and has no international coaching experience which apparently is paramount in some peoples eyes.
Or Foster for 4 more years or Schmidt who if the don't have a great WC would not be a great option,
But I suppose there is always Fred from the local u12 team ready to jump in.Yup. The fact that we credit Jason Ryan for much of the ABs recent improvement says something about Razor's ability to build a coaching team doesn't it?
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Not sure why people are posting Razor is selfish and entitled.
Every major international coaching Job will be locked in before the WC and coaches need to take opportunities before there is none left.
Rennie has also said the same thing to the Australian RU he needs to know by May if they are interested in him after the WC.
Joseph,Brown,Jones will all be locked in somewhere mid 2023.
Only the NZR expect all the top coaches to sit and wait until after the WC and decline other jobs just in case the get the call.For me it is a pretty scary scenario if a Coach like Razor is not given any indication by the NZR if he is wanted or not and Ends up as England coach where he has the most money and Resources in World Rugby backing him.
As for he needs the right set up around him, Jason Ryan,Scott Hansen had no major coaching experience but really grew under Razor at Canterbury and the Crusaders,Andrew Goodman too came as Assistant coach at Ta$man no real experience,O'Gara also had not a lot of Coaching under his belt before coming to coach under Razor.
And came away saying the learnt a lot under Razor and it changed his thinking patterns as a Coach,Plenty of articles quoting O'Gara saying these things.
Tamiti Ellison another one who seems to have grown as coach under Razor.Just maybe Razor is a great mentor for young coaches as well as being a great winning coach.
If this current coaching team fail at the WC which is a real possibility the AB's will be left with who McDonald who has won nothing and has no international coaching experience which apparently is paramount in some peoples eyes.
Or Foster for 4 more years or Schmidt who if the don't have a great WC would not be a great option,
But I suppose there is always Fred from the local u12 team ready to jump in.Yup. The fact that we credit Jason Ryan for much of the ABs recent improvement says something about Razor's ability to build a coaching team doesn't it?
Yeah it really does.
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I find the thinking of the various unions around the world cup to be very fucking old fashioned, and in the main poor governance with regards to high performance.
A four-yearly tournament with a heap of variables should in no way determine your thinking around your head guy in a true high-performance environment.
It's different if you want your current guy to be your coach, but he's said he's out after the Cup, then no worries (though there should absolutely be some handover with the next guy you want).
But in the main that is not what happens. Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?And i believe it goes the other way as well. If you don't think he's the right guy, why give him the Cup? Get rid even a couple of months out. If you don't think he's the right guy, will a new guy be worse?
Of course employment law muddies the water a bit, but contract lengths exist for a reason. Hypothetically speaking, if Foster is not your guy, BUT he's not failing enough to trigger the right clauses in the contract, then make your move now for who gets the gig in 12 months.
This post got a bit muddied as i typed it, i just think the way Unions operate around decision making and the World Cup is fucking stupid, and not conducive to high performance over the rest of the "cycle".
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@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I find the thinking of the various unions around the world cup to be very fucking old fashioned, and in the main poor governance with regards to high performance.
A four-yearly tournament with a heap of variables should in no way determine your thinking around your head guy in a true high-performance environment.
It's different if you want your current guy to be your coach, but he's said he's out after the Cup, then no worries (though there should absolutely be some handover with the next guy you want).
But in the main that is not what happens. Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?And i believe it goes the other way as well. If you don't think he's the right guy, why give him the Cup? Get rid even a couple of months out. If you don't think he's the right guy, will a new guy be worse?
Of course employment law muddies the water a bit, but contract lengths exist for a reason. Hypothetically speaking, if Foster is not your guy, BUT he's not failing enough to trigger the right clauses in the contract, then make your move now for who gets the gig in 12 months.
This post got a bit muddied as i typed it, i just think the way Unions operate around decision making and the World Cup is fucking stupid, and not conducive to high performance over the rest of the "cycle".
I can't say I disagree but it is the way coaching appointments are structured these days.
I just had my contract renewed by Queensland cricket for u/19s it is base on KPIs for the State Championships if we don't achieve a top 4 finish we fail one of the major KPIs so the appointment is structured on one Tournament not on the growth of the players in the squad in Premier cricket and beyond but how well they do in a 2 week tournament. -
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
at that time had he not already won more things as head coach than fozzie? we use the term "entitled" as a bad thing...but he is pretty close to being entitled in the literal sense, winning at the two levels below makes someone pretty close to actually being entitled to being considered for the next level, IMO
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@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him . -
@Chris like Brown (before having his arm twisted) have to respect those that know what theyre good at
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .My understanding was the questin put to him was 'are you the best man for the job?' and his response was basically 'I think so, but if there's someone better good luck to them'.
Point being he's a legendarily good coach, just transformed the Black Ferns, long history - but his style is not the infallible leader
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris like Brown (before having his arm twisted) have to respect those that know what theyre good at
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris like Brown (before having his arm twisted) have to respect those that know what theyre good at
Exactly if you don’t back yourself you normally fail.
I think Foster has always said he rates himself as a coach in different ways and so he should he has to I instill confidence in those around him he is the man for the job.
No one will follow someone who shows doubt about their abilities. -
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .My understanding was the questin put to him was 'are you the best man for the job?' and his response was basically 'I think so, but if there's someone better good luck to them'.
Point being he's a legendarily good coach, just transformed the Black Ferns, long history - but his style is not the infallible leader
A different personality it works for him, but everyone has a different character ,You use the best traits you have to get the best out of yourself.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
A different personality it works for him, but everyone has a different character ,You use the best traits you have to get the best out of yourself.
I agree with your second point -it was the first I responded to.
