Foster, Robertson etc
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I have said before the rugby public has been very patient up til now. We have seen the drop in standards and form from arguably 2017. Foster was a big part of RWC 2019. I remember Hansen, in his bid to get Foster the gig, basically say Foster was almost running the show in 2019. We have been told to suck it up, ABs can't win everything, etc, etc, as the obvious form of the ABs went into decline and negative records have been broken. Excuse after excuse with soundbites that have now lost their meaning.
Now the backlash because people have had enough and fans are told to grow up, leave Foster alone, mental health, etc, etc. FFS! Just fuck off! -
@Stargazer said in Foster:
So many assumptions about what Robertson wants or doesn't want. Too much speculation, too few facts.
Given NZR has done nothing at all to try to control the narrative and perception then they leave themselves open to a huge amount of speculation based on what people are seeing. They've only got themselves to blame.
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@No-Quarter said in Foster:
@Stargazer said in Foster:
So many assumptions about what Robertson wants or doesn't want. Too much speculation, too few facts.
Given NZR has done nothing at all to try to control the narrative and perception then they leave themselves open to a huge amount of speculation based on what people are seeing. They've only got themselves to blame.
They've fuelled it too - Robinson with his 'Support him as coach for the SA games' threw petrol on the fire. They are being crucified in the media, and there aren't many good responses to direct questions like that, but fark me it plays poorly.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
For the first time that I can remember the AB coach position has become almost political in nature, akin to a struggling political party and daily speculation of a leadership spill.
Huh? Did you forget Deans v Henry and co?
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My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
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@nzzp and that headline earlier in the week saying Robinson had told Fozzie to resign if he doesnt win in SA...I dont recall any denial this happened.
Robinson should walk and hold the door for Fozzie.
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My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
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@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
I’m really not sure where the England line has come from, but the story/rumour is him turning down the role until he can get a full 4 year run. Nothing to do with England, England might happen if he doesn’t get it for 2024, but that’s really irrelevant.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
Its all Speculation, as Razor and The NZR have said absolutely nothing about the AB job or Razor has not indicated he is turning down anything to coach England..
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
I’m really not sure where the England line has come from, but the story/rumour is him turning down the role until he can get a full 4 year run. Nothing to do with England, England might happen if he doesn’t get it for 2024, but that’s really irrelevant.
My original post you replied to was responding to a post about a scenario where he takes the England job after 2023.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
Its all Speculation, as Razor and The NZR have said absolutely nothing about the AB job or Razor has not indicated he is turning down anything to coach England..
Yep. Personally I think Razor would take it if offered.
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
If that's what he thinks then fine, but then he has to acknowledge he may be closing the door on future AB coaching opportunities. I'm not saying I necessarily agree but I think the NZ rugby community (including the powers that be) wont look very fondly on him turning down the ABs to coach England and this will be scrutinised when/if he does eventually apply.
I’m really not sure where the England line has come from, but the story/rumour is him turning down the role until he can get a full 4 year run. Nothing to do with England, England might happen if he doesn’t get it for 2024, but that’s really irrelevant.
My original post you replied to was responding to a post about a scenario where he takes the England job after 2023.
Ha, fair enough. But I think he would only look for that if he didn’t get the ABs job. And good on him
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@Machpants said in Foster:
@Machpants said in Foster:
My fear is that Robinson has already been talking to the RFU and will be coaching England after 2023. But lets wait until we actually know something.
If that's the case then he doesn't want the AB job at all because there's no way he comes back from that. You can't turn down the ABs for England and think you're ever going to get another shot at the AB job.
Yeah you do come back from that. You are thinkig the sort of way that left us with Foster, coaches should be so honoured to be even asked to aplly, they should just drop everythin and crawl to NZR in sack cloth. Bollocks, this is the real world with pro coaches. They rubber stamped foster last time because he didn’t have international experince, the excuse, so how is he going to get that without coaching overseas? NZR needs to wake up, if they want the best coaches they need to realise that they need to work to get them. Otherwise places like Oz and Japan steal them from under their noses, by not being so high and mighty and just offering them the job. Same as players are allowed sabbaticals these days, NZR needs forward looking thinking on coaches. Wouldn’t be so bad if coaches had the same rules as players, when it comes to international eligibility!
No you don't. It isn't going away and getting international experience while waiting for the job. It's turning it down to coach one of our most hated enemies at a time when he's needed.
That's got nothing to do with NZR's failed application process last time.
Totally disagree, there is a fucking mess, why should Razor want to clean it up? And then, because it might not be fixable in the short term, he wastes his once chance at ABs coaching? So unless they offer him until 2025 minimum, I would say fuck off, too.
I've been reticent to comment given it's all internet supposition and unsubstantiated rumours from people with a history of being wrong.
Robinson could just as likely be unwilling to make a public statement so as not to be seen politicking for the role and undermining Foster. Most people could see that even for a driven individual it would be a poor look.
Having said that, if a person who originally applied for the the role (so we definitely know he wanted it) then decided that it looked all too difficult, or not the right environment for him to take over, is badly misreading the tea leaves and public sentiment. If he's half as good a coach as he believes himself to be, he'd know what elements to address between current performance and what his vision is.
To say no to that opportunity and waltz off to another tier one, well resourced nation to coach against us would invite the level of opprobrium currently directed at Foster. And I'd join in the calls for him to never be considered for the All Black coaching position because in my mind he'd have already shown himself to not have the ticker for it.
He has no international experience to speak of and handing him an entire RWC cycle without review would be the most amateur administrative error NZR could make.
tl;dr version - cometh the hour, cometh the man or fucketh the fuck off.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
For the first time that I can remember the AB coach position has become almost political in nature, akin to a struggling political party and daily speculation of a leadership spill.
Huh? Did you forget Deans v Henry and co?
But that was more conventional in that there was a “process” and two candidates going for one job that was actually available. Right now there is no job available.
And I don’t think it was as brutal in terms of the character stuff.
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@antipodean said in Foster:
He has no international experience to speak of and handing him an entire RWC cycle without review would be the most amateur administrative error NZR could make.
tl;dr version - cometh the hour, cometh the man or fucketh the fuck off.That’s what they gave Foster! The supposed review was ‘oh it’s too nasty for him not to know, so let’s give him the next 2 years’
Anyway no one is saying without review, as long as there are agreed KPIs, sign him on until 2027 IMO.
But NZR appear to not have KPIs, just chats about the players feeling good with the coach.
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@antipodean so you’ll add to the supposition 😉
There does need to be a circuit breaker and a couple of assistant changes unfortunately will unlikely be enough.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
@ACT-Crusader said in Foster:
For the first time that I can remember the AB coach position has become almost political in nature, akin to a struggling political party and daily speculation of a leadership spill.
Huh? Did you forget Deans v Henry and co?
But that was more conventional in that there was a “process” and two candidates going for one job that was actually available. Right now there is no job available.
And I don’t think it was as brutal in terms of the character stuff.
After the 2007 WC loss Henry has spoken of vitriol that came his and his family's way. So it's nothing new.
Don't like that example, go back to criticism Mitchel got, or Hart. It's always been a contentious job when results have dipped. If anything, it's easier now IMO.
