Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Early 70s was shit too. In my lifetime but before my recollection ...
Eerily similar to now when one of the best periods on NZ rugby crashed spectacularly. It was utter shite, mainly, for year after year with occasional glimpses of light.
New coach after new coach didn't help much. (Bob Duff, the wonder coach who everyone wanted, as he was definitely and quickly going to restore the team's fortunes after the '71 Lions loss, was a utter fucking disaster). Took a good 5 years of crap until the penny dropped with the public & the NZRFU that we didn't have the players, the world had caught up and we needed to accept we had some work to do. After that, things got better, but it took a while.
Don't want to sound gloom and doom, but I think we are poss. in a really bad way rugby-wise and it could be a very bumpy ride for a few years. NZR needs some clear-headed thinking on where the fault-lines are and start planning to deliver the needed changes.
NZRU strategy mirroring the ABs gameplan - hope someone unearths a world class talent ☺️
The turnaround came with a new coach - Jack Gleason - who nobody seemed to want except the NZRFU, IIRC. Was a bit of a maverick, dumped a load of star players, appointed a Test debutante (Mourie) as Captain. People thought he was bonkers and wanted him removed as coach but he injected intelligence and shrewdness in the team.
Need some of that shit now, I reckon.
We need someone who can add a bit of clarity to the entire setup, from selections to tactics to the atmosphere in the group
It must be a difficult position for the players. When the coaches game plan isn't working, they may want to do some off the cuff plays or change the approach slightly on the field depending on the situation. But if it goes wrong, they can see negativity in the press and the public, so may decide to stick with what they've been told.
Doubt it, but I don't think it should be underestimated. ABs are human beings, not robots.
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Early 70s was shit too. In my lifetime but before my recollection ...
Eerily similar to now when one of the best periods on NZ rugby crashed spectacularly. It was utter shite, mainly, for year after year with occasional glimpses of light.
New coach after new coach didn't help much. (Bob Duff, the wonder coach who everyone wanted, as he was definitely and quickly going to restore the team's fortunes after the '71 Lions loss, was a utter fucking disaster). Took a good 5 years of crap until the penny dropped with the public & the NZRFU that we didn't have the players, the world had caught up and we needed to accept we had some work to do. After that, things got better, but it took a while.
Don't want to sound gloom and doom, but I think we are poss. in a really bad way rugby-wise and it could be a very bumpy ride for a few years. NZR needs some clear-headed thinking on where the fault-lines are and start planning to deliver the needed changes.
NZRU strategy mirroring the ABs gameplan - hope someone unearths a world class talent ☺️
The turnaround came with a new coach - Jack Gleason - who nobody seemed to want except the NZRFU, IIRC. Was a bit of a maverick, dumped a load of star players, appointed a Test debutante (Mourie) as Captain. People thought he was bonkers and wanted him removed as coach but he injected intelligence and shrewdness in the team.
Need some of that shit now, I reckon.
We need someone who can add a bit of clarity to the entire setup, from selections to tactics to the atmosphere in the group
Pure speculation, but I wonder if the team has lost confidence in itself, can't see the route to winning, are in a vicious downward spiral mentally and the pressure on Foster (who they like) is just adding to that.
From business performance experience, sometimes you need someone (generally external) to tell a team it isn't the management, they are the ones not performing, they need to fix it and ask in no uncertain terms what they are going to do about it.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Early 70s was shit too. In my lifetime but before my recollection ...
Eerily similar to now when one of the best periods on NZ rugby crashed spectacularly. It was utter shite, mainly, for year after year with occasional glimpses of light.
New coach after new coach didn't help much. (Bob Duff, the wonder coach who everyone wanted, as he was definitely and quickly going to restore the team's fortunes after the '71 Lions loss, was a utter fucking disaster). Took a good 5 years of crap until the penny dropped with the public & the NZRFU that we didn't have the players, the world had caught up and we needed to accept we had some work to do. After that, things got better, but it took a while.
Don't want to sound gloom and doom, but I think we are poss. in a really bad way rugby-wise and it could be a very bumpy ride for a few years. NZR needs some clear-headed thinking on where the fault-lines are and start planning to deliver the needed changes.
NZRU strategy mirroring the ABs gameplan - hope someone unearths a world class talent ☺️
The turnaround came with a new coach - Jack Gleason - who nobody seemed to want except the NZRFU, IIRC. Was a bit of a maverick, dumped a load of star players, appointed a Test debutante (Mourie) as Captain. People thought he was bonkers and wanted him removed as coach but he injected intelligence and shrewdness in the team.
Need some of that shit now, I reckon.
We need someone who can add a bit of clarity to the entire setup, from selections to tactics to the atmosphere in the group
Pure speculation, but I wonder if the team has lost confidence in itself, can't see the route to winning, are in a vicious downward spiral mentally and the pressure on Foster (who they like) is just adding to that.
From business performance experience, sometimes you need someone (generally external) to tell a team it isn't the management, they are the ones not performing, they need to fix it and ask in no uncertain terms what they are going to do about it.
Was that what Schmidt was for? Is he even travelling with the team? Enough of the half measures. We need bold action
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I think you are right.
We have a perfect storm at the moment in New Zealand rugby, and after long period of success, we have failed to change our approach to the game long after the rest of the world has.
This has been compounded by putting in Fozzie as head coach.
Your analogy of coach is an interesting one and a thinly veiled reference to the situation today with Robertson.
If Razor takes the job then he will have an almighty job on his hands trying to turn this group around after it has been Fozzied for the last 3 years
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Was that what Schmidt was for? Is he even travelling with the team? Enough of the half measures. We need bold action
Not travelling with team.
Foster opens up on Joe Schmidt's role in All Blacks camp - new zealand
SPOTLIGHT: Ian Foster and the All Blacks have been the subjects of intense criticism after falling to their maiden series loss at the hands of Ireland – their first home series defeat since 1994.
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@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Was that what Schmidt was for? Is he even travelling with the team? Enough of the half measures. We need bold action
Not travelling with team.
Foster opens up on Joe Schmidt's role in All Blacks camp - new zealand
SPOTLIGHT: Ian Foster and the All Blacks have been the subjects of intense criticism after falling to their maiden series loss at the hands of Ireland – their first home series defeat since 1994.
That's what I thought. What's the fucken point then?
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
That's what I thought. What's the fucken point then?
Foster said his role was very clear but it is not clear to me at all whether Schmidt reports to Foster, to NZR or Foster reports to him. Doesn't seem to be acting like an assistant but Foster didn't want to give anyone a sense that Schmidt was appointed at his level or above. If he isn't travelling but giving strategic advice, maybe he reads data better than Foster or maybe? ...Don't know.
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@nostrildamus said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
That's what I thought. What's the fucken point then?
Foster said his role was very clear but it is not clear to me at all whether Schmidt reports to Foster, to NZR or Foster reports to him. Doesn't seem to be acting like an assistant but Foster didn't want to give anyone a sense that Schmidt was appointed at his level or above. If he isn't travelling but giving strategic advice, maybe he reads data better than Foster or maybe? ...Don't know.
Lip service. Half measures
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@DaGrubster said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Your analogy of coach is an interesting one and a thinly veiled reference to the situation today with Robertson.
Unintentional reference. Everyone believed Duff was a magic solution but it just kicked the can down Reality Road a little longer. It was rinse and repeat for the next two coaches as well.
If Razor takes the job then he will have an almighty job on his hands trying to turn this group around after it has been Fozzied for the last 3 years
Nope, I believe the problems way deeper than Foster and were there long before he took over. The danger is Robertson will improve things in the short term (google Hawthorn Effect) but the deeper problems will still exist and will re-emerge worse than ever.
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Early 70s was shit too. In my lifetime but before my recollection ...
Eerily similar to now when one of the best periods on NZ rugby crashed spectacularly. It was utter shite, mainly, for year after year with occasional glimpses of light.
New coach after new coach didn't help much. (Bob Duff, the wonder coach who everyone wanted, as he was definitely and quickly going to restore the team's fortunes after the '71 Lions loss, was a utter fucking disaster). Took a good 5 years of crap until the penny dropped with the public & the NZRFU that we didn't have the players, the world had caught up and we needed to accept we had some work to do. After that, things got better, but it took a while.
Don't want to sound gloom and doom, but I think we are poss. in a really bad way rugby-wise and it could be a very bumpy ride for a few years. NZR needs some clear-headed thinking on where the fault-lines are and start planning to deliver the needed changes.
NZRU strategy mirroring the ABs gameplan - hope someone unearths a world class talent ☺️
The turnaround came with a new coach - Jack Gleason - who nobody seemed to want except the NZRFU, IIRC. Was a bit of a maverick, dumped a load of star players, appointed a Test debutante (Mourie) as Captain. People thought he was bonkers and wanted him removed as coach but he injected intelligence and shrewdness in the team.
Need some of that shit now, I reckon.
We need someone who can add a bit of clarity to the entire setup, from selections to tactics to the atmosphere in the group
Pure speculation, but I wonder if the team has lost confidence in itself, can't see the route to winning, are in a vicious downward spiral mentally and the pressure on Foster (who they like) is just adding to that.
From business performance experience, sometimes you need someone (generally external) to tell a team it isn't the management, they are the ones not performing, they need to fix it and ask in no uncertain terms what they are going to do about it.
Was that what Schmidt was for? Is he even travelling with the team? Enough of the half measures. We need bold action
I'd argue Schmidt isn't external. Going slightly off-the-wall here, but I'd get someone smart & respected like Conrad to take a look and advise.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@DaGrubster said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Your analogy of coach is an interesting one and a thinly veiled reference to the situation today with Robertson.
Unintentional reference. Everyone believed Duff was a magic solution but it just kicked the can down Reality Road a little longer. It was rinse and repeat for the next two coaches as well.
If Razor takes the job then he will have an almighty job on his hands trying to turn this group around after it has been Fozzied for the last 3 years
Nope, I believe the problems way deeper than Foster and were there long before he took over. The danger is Robertson will improve things in the short term (google Hawthorn Effect) but the deeper problems will still exist and will re-emerge worse than ever.
Foster isn't helping though. This team should be better. But we do need to reevaluate our playing style in test and SR level
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@Bovidae said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
It's very unlikely Schmidt will be touring whoever the coach is. He stepped away from day-to-day coaching for family reasons (i.e., his son).
No good having an advisor who doesn't travel.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@stodders said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@booboo said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
Early 70s was shit too. In my lifetime but before my recollection ...
Eerily similar to now when one of the best periods on NZ rugby crashed spectacularly. It was utter shite, mainly, for year after year with occasional glimpses of light.
New coach after new coach didn't help much. (Bob Duff, the wonder coach who everyone wanted, as he was definitely and quickly going to restore the team's fortunes after the '71 Lions loss, was a utter fucking disaster). Took a good 5 years of crap until the penny dropped with the public & the NZRFU that we didn't have the players, the world had caught up and we needed to accept we had some work to do. After that, things got better, but it took a while.
Don't want to sound gloom and doom, but I think we are poss. in a really bad way rugby-wise and it could be a very bumpy ride for a few years. NZR needs some clear-headed thinking on where the fault-lines are and start planning to deliver the needed changes.
NZRU strategy mirroring the ABs gameplan - hope someone unearths a world class talent ☺️
The turnaround came with a new coach - Jack Gleason - who nobody seemed to want except the NZRFU, IIRC. Was a bit of a maverick, dumped a load of star players, appointed a Test debutante (Mourie) as Captain. People thought he was bonkers and wanted him removed as coach but he injected intelligence and shrewdness in the team.
Need some of that shit now, I reckon.
We need someone who can add a bit of clarity to the entire setup, from selections to tactics to the atmosphere in the group
Pure speculation, but I wonder if the team has lost confidence in itself, can't see the route to winning, are in a vicious downward spiral mentally and the pressure on Foster (who they like) is just adding to that.
From business performance experience, sometimes you need someone (generally external) to tell a team it isn't the management, they are the ones not performing, they need to fix it and ask in no uncertain terms what they are going to do about it.
Was that what Schmidt was for? Is he even travelling with the team? Enough of the half measures. We need bold action
I'd argue Schmidt isn't external. Going slightly off-the-wall here, but I'd get someone smart & respected like Conrad to take a look and advise.
Conrad Smith is a good shout. He's been exposed to what is going on in France too, so his perspective would be good.
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@canefan said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
@Bovidae said in Springboks v All Blacks 2 (Fozzie's Swansong??):
It's very unlikely Schmidt will be touring whoever the coach is. He stepped away from day-to-day coaching for family reasons (i.e., his son).
No good having an advisor who doesn't travel.
Yeah cos the internet isn't a thing.
He does analysis of opposition, don't need to be there for that
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@Machpants video analysis only ok. But Zoom or Skype or Teams with the players and coaches about overall strategy ain't the same.
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Next coach not only needs a coherent gameplan he needs to be a daring selector. The tight five needs some refreshing and that might mean promoting on promise and trusting instincts.
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Next coach not only needs a coherent gameplan he needs to be a daring selector. The tight five needs some refreshing and that might mean promoting on promise and trusting instincts.
He needs to have a distinct idea of how he wants the team to play, then pick the best players for the job. There are good players in there, he just needs to pick the right combinations to succeed
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@Victor-Meldrew This. With McCaw, Carter, Conrad, Ben and SW, you always knew we had the smarts
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Brain dump:
Bear in mind that there are lots of things that are considered 'flaws' even when the team is trucking along well and winning. That perfect game comes along rarely.
Just some new ideas on how we can compete against power sides that are well drilled and make few errors to feed off would be the job description IMO.
We aren't going to do any more than hold our own in the forwards unless we find 7 more Samisoni types.
I can actually see what Foster is trying to do but his ideas are being headed off at the pass before they can even get settled.
The game was reffed totally differently to what we see in Super and the current reffing at NPC and FPC is a mile away. Whether this is something that WR are trying to introduce up through the levels I dont know but it's not playing into our hands at the moment.
I'm not trying to find excuses but probably three quarters of the turnovers the other night would have been whistled for not releasing quickly enough from what we are seeing domestically. We aren't adjusting to that well enough.
One thing is very clear though, and even Foster is recognising it. The team is in a death spiral as despite improvements in some areas (defensive alignments, mauls) they are getting nothing to show for the work put in and the harder they try to break the funk the more they put themselves under pressure.
There's only one way to arrest these spirals and that's a fresh start.
I think Foster is possibly right strategically around what he's trying but tactically has been very poor and out-thought at every bend which has heaped pressure on the players and that coinciding with a power game coming right for teams that prefer that style (and a system that is encouraging power over skill) we are going to keep digging a deeper and deeper hole.
I also think that circumstances outside of Fosters control haven't helped one bit and have exposed his flaws. Covid, the lack of games with SA, the schedule (having to play Ireland, France, SA with hardly any respite to get players and styles established), injuries in weak areas, have all contributed but that doesn't wash away that fact of the death spiral that needs stopping.
I have sympathy for Foster much like any coach doing their best and having their flaws exposed by outside elements. We've witnessed these things before (with the Blues especially) and I think that even he will admit that it's gone too long now. The brave talk at the moment is because he still has a duty to try and get the team up for the weekend.
Quite how a new coach can take over half way through a championship is a bit beyond me but maybe that's the plan behind all of this. A few weeks of pain while stuff is being established in the background.
