Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
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@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
How bout one of those Umaga Jensens ? They seem pretty big strong and fast.
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Thing is, Nonu, as he was those last couple of years was a generational player, we may not see the likes of him again in Black, but unfortunately he, like Richie, DC, Conrad et al may not come our way again anytime soon, if at all.
So we need to look at the ones we have and learn how to use thier talents.
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@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long.
The way he was buggered about by Hansen it's amazing he stuck with NZR rather than bugger off overseas for some serious moolah
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's.
What record are you speaking of exactly?
His 93% win-record across 2015/16 seasons
despite being only 40 & 41 at the time, and only having 2 years of head coaching experience at that stage, Robertson is 48 next month and has now had 11 years of experience as a head coach, in contrast Rennie was already 47 and was already a seasoned coach with 9 years of head coaching experience when he coached the NZ U20's, meanwhile Razor was just starting out & still holds the 2nd best record for long-term NZ U20 coaches, a record a lot better than Chris Boyd (60%) and others.Consider how much better of a coach Razor is now? Coaches typically peak around their late 40's until their mid 50's.
Robertson is a student of the game who's in dialogue with Eddie Jones, Craig Bellamy, Wayne Smith, O'Gara, etc..
He's always looking to improve & seeking alternative viewpoints from NH coaches, learnt & from the best and has genuinely honed his craft since starting off at Sumner. He's at least 3x times a better coach now than he was back in 2016.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's.
What record are you speaking of exactly?
His 93% win record across 2015/16
despite being only 40 & 41 at the time, and only having 2 years of head coaching experience at that stage, Robertson is 48 next month and has now had 11 years of experience as a head coach, in contrast Rennie was already 46 and was already a seasoned coach with 9 years of head coaching experience when he coached the NZ U20's, meanwhile Razor was just starting out & still holds the 2nd best record for long-term NZ U20 coaches, a record a lot better than Chris Boyd and others.Consider how much better of a coach Razor is now? Coaches typically peak around their late 40's until their mid 50's.
Robertson is a student of the game who's in dialogue with Eddie Jones, Craig Bellamy, Wayne Smith, O'Gara, etc..
He's always looking to improve & seeking alternative viewpoints from NH coaches, learnt & from the best and has genuinely honed his craft since starting off at Sumner. He's at least 3x times a better coach now than he was back in 2016.
2 u/20 World Cups won 1 out of 2 not the worst record.
And of course u/2os depends on the cycle of players you have year to year. -
@MN5 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@canefan I really think he’s too small for second five. He needs space to operate and I really don’t see him being successful at second five.
We need to replace Nonu. Most of our guys strike me as being the finesse player in the MF partnership. I think ALB has to be one of the guys and we need to find the right partner for him
ALB at 2nd V would be ideal if he hadn't been fucked around for so long. He has (had) a good offload game and was pretty strong around the tackle,. That would cause issues at the Chiefs though, as arguably our best midfield would be QT/ALB.
Likely we should have kept Sullivan and tried ALB/Sullivan with QT off the bench. I understand why we kept Nanvikell, but as has been seen, Sullivan is class and needed game time.
How bout one of those Umaga Jensens ? They seem pretty big strong and fast.
One is regularly injured one doesn't seem to be a fave with his coaches and hardly gets to play (at 13 anyway).
That said, I think they're good! Not 25 until the end of the year so they have some time left. -
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's.
What record are you speaking of exactly?
His 93% win record across 2015/16
despite being only 40 & 41 at the time, and only having 2 years of head coaching experience at that stage, Robertson is 48 next month and has now had 11 years of experience as a head coach, in contrast Rennie was already 46 and was already a seasoned coach with 9 years of head coaching experience when he coached the NZ U20's, meanwhile Razor was just starting out & still holds the 2nd best record for long-term NZ U20 coaches, a record a lot better than Chris Boyd and others.Consider how much better of a coach Razor is now? Coaches typically peak around their late 40's until their mid 50's.
Robertson is a student of the game who's in dialogue with Eddie Jones, Craig Bellamy, Wayne Smith, O'Gara, etc..
He's always looking to improve & seeking alternative viewpoints from NH coaches, learnt & from the best and has genuinely honed his craft since starting off at Sumner. He's at least 3x times a better coach now than he was back in 2016.
2 u/20 World Cups won 1 out of 2 not the worst record.
And of course u/2os depends on the cycle of players you have year to year.Hardly sane for Victor Meldrew to judge Razor based solely on his results as a 40 year old with 2 years of professional coaching experience, fucking Lol...
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Old misery guts Meldrew (his did choose his name and avatar btw) is over thinking this entirely. Even Blind Freddie can see that Razor is comfortably better than Foster. Yes there are wider issues within NZR rugby, but if you take the ABs in isolation then there are a number of improvements to be made with a more capable person as head coach, especially one who is regarded as arguably the best coach in the world (I’m not sure if that is true btw) and the hottest coaching ticket in town.
Effectively, Foster has 2 games to save his job (based on Robinsons comments). Win both games and he gets a stay of execution. Lose both and he is out. Has to be.
It is now or never for Foster. He has to pull out every ounce of his coaching ability to keep him in a job
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Old misery guts Meldrew (his did choose his name and avatar btw) is over thinking this entirely. Even Blind Freddie can see that Razor is comfortably better than Foster. Yes there are wider issues within NZR rugby, but if you take the ABs in isolation then there are a number of improvements to be made with a more capable person as head coach, especially one who is regarded as arguably the best coach in the world (I’m not sure if that is true btw) and the hottest coaching ticket in town.
Effectively, Foster has 2 games to save his job (based on Robinsons comments). Win both games and he gets a stay of execution. Lose both and he is out. Has to be.
It is now or never for Foster. He has to pull out every ounce of his coaching ability to keep him in a job
The thing about Robertson is he just seems to simplify things. His players are well drilled, they know their roles well, but there is still space to express themselves without being at the total expense of the team pattern. So no headless chook stuff
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@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Old misery guts Meldrew (his did choose his name and avatar btw) is over thinking this entirely. Even Blind Freddie can see that Razor is comfortably better than Foster. Yes there are wider issues within NZR rugby, but if you take the ABs in isolation then there are a number of improvements to be made with a more capable person as head coach, especially one who is regarded as arguably the best coach in the world (I’m not sure if that is true btw) and the hottest coaching ticket in town.
Effectively, Foster has 2 games to save his job (based on Robinsons comments). Win both games and he gets a stay of execution. Lose both and he is out. Has to be.
It is now or never for Foster. He has to pull out every ounce of his coaching ability to keep him in a job
Let’s set up a poll - I don’t know why, but I think he’s going to win them both.
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@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Old misery guts Meldrew (his did choose his name and avatar btw) is over thinking this entirely. Even Blind Freddie can see that Razor is comfortably better than Foster. Yes there are wider issues within NZR rugby, but if you take the ABs in isolation then there are a number of improvements to be made with a more capable person as head coach, especially one who is regarded as arguably the best coach in the world (I’m not sure if that is true btw) and the hottest coaching ticket in town.
Effectively, Foster has 2 games to save his job (based on Robinsons comments). Win both games and he gets a stay of execution. Lose both and he is out. Has to be.
It is now or never for Foster. He has to pull out every ounce of his coaching ability to keep him in a job
Let’s set up a poll - I don’t know why, but I think he’s going to win them both.
Is it the fact we've won 5 of the last 6 matches over there or just a hunch?
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@gt12 said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@DaGrubster said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Old misery guts Meldrew (his did choose his name and avatar btw) is over thinking this entirely. Even Blind Freddie can see that Razor is comfortably better than Foster. Yes there are wider issues within NZR rugby, but if you take the ABs in isolation then there are a number of improvements to be made with a more capable person as head coach, especially one who is regarded as arguably the best coach in the world (I’m not sure if that is true btw) and the hottest coaching ticket in town.
Effectively, Foster has 2 games to save his job (based on Robinsons comments). Win both games and he gets a stay of execution. Lose both and he is out. Has to be.
It is now or never for Foster. He has to pull out every ounce of his coaching ability to keep him in a job
Let’s set up a poll - I don’t know why, but I think he’s going to win them both.
Is it the fact we've won 5 of the last 6 matches over there or just a hunch?
Ian Foster's record as All Black Head Coach in SA can be found here.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
What record are you speaking of exactly?
His failure to get out of the Pool stages in 2016
....despite being only 40 & 41 at the time
Totally irrelevant - he was good enough to win in 2015 remember
I'm sure he's a student of the game who is in dialogue with other coaches all over the world, who's always looking to improve, and has honed his craft in the last 6 years. Hardly unique - just like every other top level coach in the world.
.
And just like every Test level in the world he can have a great record one year and a crap one the next. -
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Chris said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Frank said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
Foster is a problem and Razor would be a better coach. I am not sure why you are doubting this.
I admire your absolute certainty, I really do. He's a great coach at SR level, but think about where we'd be if Robertson repeats his U20 record with the AB's.
What record are you speaking of exactly?
His 93% win record across 2015/16
despite being only 40 & 41 at the time, and only having 2 years of head coaching experience at that stage, Robertson is 48 next month and has now had 11 years of experience as a head coach, in contrast Rennie was already 46 and was already a seasoned coach with 9 years of head coaching experience when he coached the NZ U20's, meanwhile Razor was just starting out & still holds the 2nd best record for long-term NZ U20 coaches, a record a lot better than Chris Boyd and others.Consider how much better of a coach Razor is now? Coaches typically peak around their late 40's until their mid 50's.
Robertson is a student of the game who's in dialogue with Eddie Jones, Craig Bellamy, Wayne Smith, O'Gara, etc..
He's always looking to improve & seeking alternative viewpoints from NH coaches, learnt & from the best and has genuinely honed his craft since starting off at Sumner. He's at least 3x times a better coach now than he was back in 2016.
2 u/20 World Cups won 1 out of 2 not the worst record.
And of course u/2os depends on the cycle of players you have year to year.Hardly sane for Victor Meldrew to judge Razor based solely on his results as a 40 year old with 2 years of professional coaching experience, fucking Lol...
Unaware I was judging him but pointing out his inexperience at Test level and the risk of failure a la 2016 .
But feel free to call anyone who questions the absolutist belief that Robertson is 100% guaranteed to solve all the problems, with zero risk of failure, insane if it make you feel better.
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Old misery guts Meldrew (his did choose his name and avatar btw)
Seriously weird comment. Who else did you think chose my name & avatar?
is over thinking this entirely
It's called analysing and debating the problem and discussing potential solutions and risks rather than believing in risk-free magic solutions.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
But feel free to call anyone who questions the absolutist belief that Robertson is 100% guaranteed to solve all the problems, with zero risk of failure, insane if it make you feel better.
I have not read these "absolutists" on here. Perhaps they have a name?
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But feel free to call anyone who questions the absolutist belief that Robertson is 100% guaranteed to solve all the problems, with zero risk of failure, insane if it make you feel better.
I don’t think anyone would expect Robertson to solve all the problems right away. Heck if he had the job right now he might lose a couple. But I’m confident there would be a change in direction and environment. Of course Rennie would have been good too and perhaps others. Foster was more of the same with Hansen but with less pedigree.
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@broughie said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
But feel free to call anyone who questions the absolutist belief that Robertson is 100% guaranteed to solve all the problems, with zero risk of failure, insane if it make you feel better.
I don’t think anyone would expect Robertson to solve all the problems right away. Heck if he had the job right now he might lose a couple. But I’m confident there would be a change in direction and environment. Of course Rennie would have been good too and perhaps others. Foster was more of the same with Hansen but with less pedigree.
I agree, and I've argued that Foster should be replaced. At the same time I've argued that the ABs problems might run a wee bit deeper than just one man and NZR set a clear timescale for any new coach to do better than Foster. Also, NZR should have a contingency plan in place to manage the risk if the new bloke - say Robertson with zero Test experience - doesn't improve things
Some people think the idea that there might be a risk from appointing a bloke with zero Test experience and managing that risk is insanity for some reason.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Joan-Town-Jones said in Foster must go / Assistant Coach changes:
@Victor-Meldrew Why wait until then? Can they not look retroactively at the last 10 games and say, "we phucked up by reappointing Foz. 5 from 10 with 2 coming from the USA and Italy is not good enough and now a series loss is just unacceptable".
That ship has sailed.
Changes must be made. We need new direction, game plans and methodology otherwise the best we can hope for is a QF exit.
We all agree on that. But it's how you best do that which is the issue.
If shouldn't have sailed though.
It has though and that's the reality.
If they draw the series in Africa, Foz over the last 12 tests will still at best hold a 50% record. If they lose 0-2 it will be 42%. That ship should certainly still be in dock and ready take the current coaching group excluding Ryan to the underworld. When is enough, enough?
Selective use of statistics there. E.g. Foster's overall win ratio in 2021 from 15 Tests (losses to Ireland and France and a narrow loss to SA) was 80%.
I still believe we have the best ball players across the park in the world but we can't unify them as one collective force save for 15-20 mins.
No we don't and haven't had for some time. Look at the U20 results and the quality of players in France for example. We don't have all these wonder players you think we have. If we did, the Whitelock & Retallick replacements would be oven-ready.
There's no what ifs. Razor has to come in.
Magic solution which won't solve the deeper issues.
The reality is, Foz loses 2 in Africa he's out. Selective use of stats? We beat the Wobs, Fiji, the USA and Italy and scraped one against SA. Fudge them all you want. The stats aren't good. We do have the best ball players. If we didn't, as dominant as teams have been against us scorelines are still relatively close with a chance of being in the game. So your solution is to stay with Foster after the drivel we've seen and expect any different? The fact is, with Foster in the coaching setup, this team has been on a downward trend since the end of 2016 and a likley QF exit next year.
New Zealand national under-20 rugby union team - Wikipedia
