All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider
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@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence.
Leinster's head coach is Leo Cullen.
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Ireland team to face NZ Maori tomorrow has been named:
15 Michael Lowry (Banbridge/Ulster) 1
14 Jordan Larmour (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) 30
13 Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) (capt) 97
12 Stuart McCloskey (Bangor/Ulster) 6
11 Jimmy O’Brien (Naas/Leinster) *
10 Ciaran Frawley (Skerries/Leinster) *
9 Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster) 51 Jeremy Loughman (Garryowen/Munster) *
2 Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) 20
3 Tom O’Toole (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 2
4 Joe McCarthy (Dublin University/Leinster) *
5 Kieran Treadwell (Ballymena/Ulster) 7
6 Cian Prendergast (Connacht) *
7 Nick Timoney (Banbridge/Ulster) 2
8 Gavin Coombes (Young Munster/Munster) 2Replacements:
- Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 27
- Ed Byrne (UCD/Leinster) 6
- Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht) 24
- Ryan Baird (Dublin University/Leinster) 8
- Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 29
- Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 98
- Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Munster) 34
- Mack Hansen (Connacht) 5
So Earls or Larmour won't be starting and Hansen on the bench looks like the coaching group want him to get more game time under his belt.
Herring, Bealham, Conan, Murray, Carbery get to go again, and looks like Baird could be the back-up lock. -
@Dan54 said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Official's
New Zealand v Ireland
Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
ARs: Karl Dickson (RFU) & Christophe Ridley (RFU)
TMO: Tom Foley (RFUHave to say I'm pretty keen to see Barnes in the middle after his performance in the MAB vs IRE 1st Test. I thought he managed that game well.
Me too mate, I actually like the way Barnes refs, from what I have seen of him in NH comp looks to be a reasonably calm ref.
Doesn't muck about, tries to keep the game flowing, friendly with the players while not taking any crap, seems to communicates well and explains his decisions clearly. Become a very good ref now he's learned to spot forward passes
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
100% serious
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow why do you hate rugby considering you're welsh??
Ha ha
I loves it. Best game in town.
Evolve or die. It's dinosaur time.
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@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence.
They targeted the NZ front row. That has to send alarm bells ringing in the NZ coaching team. The NZ front row didn't work as a unit. Too many disconnects (lack of communication, bad defensive reads or just poor work rate?) and Ireland took advantage.
Can something so fundamental be rectified in a week? I'm not sure. NZ need to focus on starving Ireland of possession and territory. And nullify Irish momentum on early phases, which is where Ireland have successfully targeted NZ's defence, which has struggled to reset fast enough.
NZ's scramble defence has been world class. You can't fault the effort in that regard. But Ireland's structured attack and running lines have manipulated and ripped open NZ's defence too many times for it to be anything but a structural problem.
NZ has some of the most gifted athletes in the rugby world who can pass and kick to their teammates with pinpoint accuracy from 30-40m
But that shouldn't be your go to. Very easy to defend against.
NZ justs needs to truck the ball up for multiple phases, tying in players with the speed and point of attack, then release the backs when there's space and/or an overlap.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
100% serious
Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MrDenmore said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Leinster’s head coach on how Ireland defused the All Blacks’ front row defence.
They targeted the NZ front row. That has to send alarm bells ringing in the NZ coaching team. The NZ front row didn't work as a unit. Too many disconnects (lack of communication, bad defensive reads or just poor work rate?) and Ireland took advantage.
Can something so fundamental be rectified in a week? I'm not sure. NZ need to focus on starving Ireland of possession and territory. And nullify Irish momentum on early phases, which is where Ireland have successfully targeted NZ's defence, which has struggled to reset fast enough.
NZ's scramble defence has been world class. You can't fault the effort in that regard. But Ireland's structured attack and running lines have manipulated and ripped open NZ's defence too many times for it to be anything but a structural problem.
NZ has some of the most gifted athletes in the rugby world who can pass and kick to their teammates with pinpoint accuracy from 30-40m
But that shouldn't be your go to. Very easy to defend against.
NZ justs needs to truck the ball up for multiple phases, tying in players with the speed and point of attack, then release the backs when there's space and/or an overlap.
Easier said than done. The NZ players appear to be under instructions to kick the ball if they don't make the break early on in the phases and the defensive line is set. It feels like it is ingrained in the players, especially the decision makers.
This is fine if you have several good tactical kickers in your team capable of turning the opposition around or who are adept at putting in contestable kicks. It also requires a good kick chase that moves in unison. Both would appear to be lacking right now in NZ's armoury.
So if your kicking game isn't up to scratch and you either can't reclaim the ball or your defence can't pressurise mistakes and you can't hold onto the ball for long periods because players keep getting isolated because they run away from support or support arrives too late...you have a problem.
NZ do have the players to be the leading team again. But the players currently at the coaching team's disposal are either not capable of carrying out the game plan being asked of them on a consistent basis or the game plan is not designed to bring out the best of the players available.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
100% serious
Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.
You penalise the players who fail to do these things and subsequently
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make contact with the opposition in what is currently deemed to be a dangerous / illegal way
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create an advantage for the defending team
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
100% serious
Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.
Especially someone like Barrett. Imagine if he hadn't gone for the intercept in the two tests against Ireland. Ireland would likely have scored in both situations.
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@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
NZ do have the players to be the leading team again. But the players currently at the coaching team's disposal are either not capable of carrying out the game plan being asked of them on a consistent basis or the game plan is not designed to bring out the best of the players available.
Salient point and the answer is probably 50-50. BB's kicking has never been his strongest point and enough about Foster.
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@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
Given current WR guidelines re red and yellow cards do you think some teams have adapted better than others or is it pure luck?
Listening to O'Gara talk he said they spend a lot of time in the background covering these things and they are fully aware of the rules and outcomes. Said he though LF could have been red under guidelines and no issue with AT red.
We can debate the foul play aspect all day long but both teams play under the same rules and smart teams will adapt and train players not to jump into charge downs. Try to get lower etc etc.
I am still slightly cynical just how much a difference coaching can make to these instincts and fast paced decisions but at some point, someone like Ofa, SB are ticking bombs in terms of cards.
Edit: O'Gara also said he instantly knew the Savea sub was an error and was surprised Foster and Co let it happen.
Been saying this for some time now.
This is a coaching decision and a player execution problem.
If a coach categorically tells his charges ‘inside the 22 don’t even think about trying to intercept a pass with one hand’ then the coaching team has determined that the reward of an interception and negating a try scoring opportunity is far outweighed by a penalty and YC at least, penalty try and YC at most PLUS playing the next 10 minutes which may leak additional points in that 10-man period and the man down creating additional fatigue for the 14 left on the park which may have implications deeper in the match.
If a coaching team has taken that decision then any one handed interception attempt inside the 22 is the player’s decision.
Player gets lucky and intercepts and it should still be a bollocking by the coaching team.
Player fails, then it’s off for 10, then subbed by coaching team.
That’s how you create a culture and take the referee out of the decision making process.
Repeat the same tactical evaluation with kick charge downs and kick contesting in the air as two other potential high reward, high risk situations.
Tackle zone is a coaching problem
Aim lower. It really is as simple as that.
The reds and TMOs are more involved in matches with certain teams because of the coaching culture.
100% serious
Penalise players that attempt to intercept, charge down kicks etc? Those events have won games.
Especially someone like Barrett. Imagine if he hadn't gone for the intercept in the two tests against Ireland. Ireland would likely have scored in both situations.
100%
He was in a position to 'positively' change the outcome of the Irish attack and he succeeded. And was rightly lauded for it.
Marcus Smith was never in a position to intercept the pass and attempted to 'negatively' change the outcome.
He was penalised.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@stodders said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
NZ do have the players to be the leading team again. But the players currently at the coaching team's disposal are either not capable of carrying out the game plan being asked of them on a consistent basis or the game plan is not designed to bring out the best of the players available.
Salient point and the answer is probably 50-50. BB's kicking has never been his strongest point and enough about Foster.
OK. But there are enough good players to build a champion team. NZ is short on world class players right now, so the focus has to be on getting the most out of the sum of its parts. The players need simpler messages IMO. They are instinctive players who aren't used to overly complicated structures, unlike the Irish who are quite the opposite. Test 1 showed what happens to Ireland if you take the structure away. They capitulated.
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So I didn't manage to watch more than the first 20, the signal strength in Italy was a killer for lagging and I gave up.
Have trawled the thread, and as such have adopted the Fern majority position of outrage and disgust.
One question, I see a few talking about QT being dropped for this week, debating whether DH or JG should come in (or even JB). Is he injured?
Reading the thread, it sounds like QT had a shocker, but in his defense, he was outstanding last week and its never fun to play in the inside channels when the pack is getting dominated.
Why are we ready to send him to the sidelines already? Is "one bad game and you're out" the right message for these guys?
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@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
So I didn't manage to watch more than the first 20, the signal strength in Italy was a killer for lagging and I gave up.
Have trawled the thread, and as such have adopted the Fern majority position of outrage and disgust.
One question, I see a few talking about QT being dropped for this week, debating whether DH or JG should come in (or even JB). Is he injured?
Reading the thread, it sounds like QT had a shocker, but in his defense, he was outstanding last week and its never fun to play in the inside channels when the pack is getting dominated.
Why are we ready to send him to the sidelines already? Is "one bad game and you're out" the right message for these guys?
Don’t think he was too bad myself. The worst back by a country Mile was the unfortunate Leicester. Just looked all at sea. I think he’ll learn from it and bounce back but he can’t go again this weekend.
As much as I’d like to see RTS get a game I don’t think this week is the right match now that it’s a decider. Has to be QT, Havili or JB, Goodhue at a pinch. One option would be to put RI back to 11 then you could have DH and JG in the centres.
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What I would select
Bower, Taukeiaho, Laulala
Retallick, Whitelock
Barrett, Sotutu, Savea
Smith, Barrett
Havili, Goodhue
Ioane, Jordan, Reece
res: Ross, Coles, Tuungafasi, Ioane, Papili, Fakatava, Mo’unga, Barrett
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
A million red cards would not have stopped what happened to AT on the weekend
I changed my mind on Angus. Highlights below, 4.47 in.
He advances, dips slightly and then stays upright. If he'd slowed down he'd probably get away with a yellow for being passive. But the movement forward is what's goign to get him in trouble with the laws they way they are.
also, all this and we don't talk about the shitty ruck play by Ireland lying long back from rucks. It's classic Gatland ploy, slowing ruck speed... cynical as shit, but right on the edge of legality. Smart play.
Me, too.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Ireland - series decider:
@No-Quarter he take a total of one step between the pass the "tackle"...thats a fraction of a second
The rapid step forward is with a view to tackling. He doesn't dip, misjudges completely and catches Ringrose with chin.
Ringrose has changed direction obviously before AT steps forward.
For me, twenty minute card, and then replacement.
