All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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so, as the dust is settling, what have we learned? Honestly, not much more than last week.
Ireland are a bloody good side. If they get into their pattern with a ref that's sympathetic, we will really struggle to impose ourselves and score points. Last week we saw our forwards going well, and stressing the defence with the carries and quick recycle. This week we saw a defence waiting to swallow up one off ball runners.
If they make mistakes, we destroy them.
If we make mistakes, we lose.
Cards are a lottery, particularly for reckless to mildly reckless play.
Foster is a mediocre coach and it shows.
We struggle to get up in the forwards consistently.
Test rugby has far less space (see Jordan, Mo'unga, Ioane, Leicester. etc).
Ireland are far better drilled than us, and make outstanding decisions consistently at the ruck. It feels like we're not as rugby smart so often these daysAh, that's a frustrating loss. Without a permanent red card it would have been really interesting - going into halftime only 3 down was ridiculous.
Well played Ireland, good win and a better team on the night.
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I think we also need to realise that the disconnect between SR and Test rugby is hurting us and not playing SA sides is also hurting. The 6 Nations and European comps seem to be really strong and have helped the NH sides immensely. The fact Ireland and Wales just won for the first time away shows their progress.
It’s not rocket science though. Need a game plan. And all those basics you learn as a kid.
Some of the selections are just disheartening. Like Callum Grace has a fantastic finish to SR and is an absolute line out weapon…so we select PGS who started well then faded away badly. His first 2 touches in both tests are simple dropped balls.
There is no way we are winning RWC with foster in charge. A pool loss to France and a quarter final exit to SA or Ire seems a decent bet tbh.
First ever defeat in the pools? Foster roll of dishonour will just keep on growing! But yeah, that is what I've had in my head since he was appointed, then disgustingly reappointed before NH tour last year. I gave the benefit of the doubt leading up to RWC, dry powder and all, but not anymore. As has been said we need a blues style makeover. NZR can add the bizarre super rugby shit, silver lake debacle, to foster, it needs a clean out
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Tim said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Didn't see a penalty at the lineout?
The same AR who thought Dalton's one metre clean out was penalty worthy.
That was inventing a penalty for penalty sake. Pretty much a look at me moment.
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@Mackerzzzz said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Why are we bringing on Ross if he's a loosehead?
Have to have two props.
Why?
Have to have a LH and a TH. It was uncontested as we didn't have a TH.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
secondly, the red on Gus. That's the worst example of the head contact protocols I've seen. The very definition of unavoidable.
Get outta town! He ran into the ball carrier, actually accelerated towards him and lined him up! The very definition of avoidable!
Stop it Justin
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@LABCAT No Harris went off.
Correct. No Harris went off.
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We may or may not have the cattle and we can't do much about that, but we can do something about the coaching. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the ABs are not a well coached side.
Internally, compare them to how the Crusaders and Blues look. Players know their roles and generally perform them week in and week out. The ABs often looked confused and seem to be required to play a style that they do not have the skills for at test level.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@MiketheSnow First event (green): Ofa's yellow card. Second event (orange): Angus' red card. Both TH props. Thought they needed uncontested scrums because they forgot Bower could have been moved to TH. Because they went for uncontested scrums, they needed to lose another player (they chose Ardie). So off were Ofa, Angus and Ardie = 12 players.
But Angus was Ofa’s replacement, so by position only the TH and the No8 were off = 13 players. From memory Leicester F was already back from Siberia by the time the uncontested scrum was called, so 13 players wasn’t it?
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Be good to start well.
Be good to finish well.
Reckon starting well woulda helped us more...sliding doors and all, no YC, RC, YC....at least how they panned out last night...
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Before the fucking Hurricanes fans pile in and go at me because their only 2 all Blacks suck
Irelands first try. Savea is the 2nd tackler. A good loose forward immediately challenges that ball on the ground. No, Ardie reels away for some fucking reason. A quick recycle and we're doomed (shit tackle attempt by WT toi)
He's just not that guy for the tough stuff. He's a cat.
If a team wants easy meters around the fringes, they run at Ardie. He rides them to the ground allowing the momentum to continue with remarkably little resistance.
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As my mate, who watched it said "Wasn't that we were not up for it once letting them in for first try. Was more a case of: as individual genius can win us games, individual fuck ups can lose us games. Freakishly so. It's like they are all individuals, not a team. Almost like there is no plan or structure to fall back on when individual genius turns to individual fuckwits. That's totally a coaching issue"
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It still looks no better the following day. It's also the continuation of a pattern.
Ian Foster might be a nice guy, but he continues to live the ultimate jobs for the boys dream. And his legacy will be quite a few unwanted All Blacks records as a result.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Dan54 nah, it's different in recent years, I barely care any more, I still care when Northland loses, but I find myself not caring about AB losses in recent years...it more about frustration through lack of learning (I can assure you Northland make all of the errors that the national.side do, and more at coaching, selection and play)
I don't know what it is, part maturity maybe....
Yep I believe in is maturity etc, my awakening came after SA beat us in 95 WC final, I woke up next day and realised the sun still came up etc. Mind you I a Canes man too so may help, lol. Don't get me wrong I still am one eyed ABs man etc, just not end of world when we lose, and find I enjoy game a bloody sight more because of it.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Can anyone define how the ABs play?
Yes. A static pod doing their level best to negate any benefit of Aaron's pass. And even then they manage to fuck cleaning out and securing the ball quickly.
I think Ireland worked out how to counter Smiths fast flat passes nicely last night and even if he has the best passes of any halfback going around they can often be ineffective with the receiver often isolated
Also Beaudy needs to improve on his touch finders from penalties - we had some great momentum from driving mauls and think we had one kick for touch that should have put us on the 5m line but instead found touch just inside the 22
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@Nevorian said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Can anyone define how the ABs play?
Yes. A static pod doing their level best to negate any benefit of Aaron's pass. And even then they manage to fuck cleaning out and securing the ball quickly.
I think Ireland worked out how to counter Smiths fast flat passes nicely last night and even if he has the best passes of any halfback going around they can often be ineffective with the receiver often isolated
Also Beaudy needs to improve on his touch finders from penalties - we had some great momentum from driving mauls and think we had one kick for touch that should have put us on the 5m line but instead found touch just inside the 22
Yes, if there's a compelling reason to reemploy Mick Byrne for a while, Beaudy's kicking is it.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Nevorian said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Can anyone define how the ABs play?
Yes. A static pod doing their level best to negate any benefit of Aaron's pass. And even then they manage to fuck cleaning out and securing the ball quickly.
I think Ireland worked out how to counter Smiths fast flat passes nicely last night and even if he has the best passes of any halfback going around they can often be ineffective with the receiver often isolated
Also Beaudy needs to improve on his touch finders from penalties - we had some great momentum from driving mauls and think we had one kick for touch that should have put us on the 5m line but instead found touch just inside the 22
Yes, if there's a compelling reason to reemploy Mick Byrne for a while, Beaudy's kicking is it.
I think that bridge is burned, from memory they essentially told him that he wasn’t good enough to be a full assistant coach.
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Fostered Out
What will it take for the New Zealand rugby board to cancel Foster’s contract and pay him out? Forget the World Cup. There is no way they’re going to win that anyway.
But if the Bledisloe Cup goes across the Ta$man this year, after a near 20-year run, the clamour for change will be hard to ignore. And losing the Bledisloe looks completely on the cards right now, wouldn’t you say?
Ask yourself: What influence has Foster brought to the All Blacks under his charge, other than a propensity for losing every second game? What stamp has he made on one of the world’s top sporting brands other than completely tarnishing it? As others have said, there appears to be no structure, no logical game plan, no ability to deal with rush defence - just a reliance on luck and individual pieces of brilliance.
Of course, Foster would say in his defence that the All Blacks have to deal with a disrupted schedule due to the ongoing pandemic, but then so has everybody else. He might also say that NZ rugby, due to the drift of talent overseas, does not have the depth it once did. But the Kiwis in the Irish team, dismissed locally as journeymen, were passed over before they drifted offshore for better opportunities. That they are shining in a different environment must say something about the paucity of ideas at home and the attraction of a better set-up elsewhere.
Putting aside individuals, one might also say that all this is an inevitable result of globalisation of talent and the arrival of a tipping point in the ongoing export to the north of NZ rugby intellectual and playing capital. But then that overlooks the fact that some world class coaching talent remains on local shores, including a six times winning Super rugby coach and the recently returned Kiwi who masterminded Ireland’s renaissance.
Perhaps Foster’s strongest defence is the fact that margins in international rugby have tightened. The North no longer lags the south by default, as can be seen in the clean sweep by Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland in their return serves against NZ, Australia, South Africa and Argentina this weekend. The days of the RC sides being automatically fitter, stronger, faster and more resilient and resourceful are over.
But then that is an even stronger argument for a world-class coaching set-up at home featuring coaches who are innovative, forward-thinking, globally attuned and able to get the very best out of the playing resources we have. We can’t control pandemics, the strength of the opposition, the vagaries of the rule book, the variability of referees, the globalisation of the game - we CAN ensure we have a coaching and management structure that provides a hothouse for talent and ideas and preserves and enhances the All Black brand.
Again, I come back to my first question: What will it take for the NZ rugby authorities to grasp that all of that is now at risk?
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
I’m going to come back at my point on Cane by pointing out that he led the team for tackles (13,1) and that Paps was the least busy with (5,0), so maybe it is early to put it on Cane.
The guys up front might be a bit different, even Scooters stats aren’t that good.
Ofa’s are a fucking nightmare - 5 penalties and a YC, 2 missed tackles and all of 6 metres.
Cane missed 1 tackle ? I just rewatched the game he missed heaps of tackles, those stats are not to be trusted.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
The Ta'avao card, as I said at half time, was the worst application of the head impact laws I have seen.
They actually put up the steps they go through up on the feed and I looked at Foul Play and thought oh well it will be a yellow at worst because no one on the planet thinks that's actually foul play. How wrong was I? Jaco obviously saw it as a flying headbutt.
@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Will now subject myself to the thread ...
I said at half time I was looking forward to reading the thread, as my mates and I watching the game found the first half so surreal. But I had a look at the end of the match and I straight up couldn't handle the amount of negativity, and I was one of the key drivers of the Hammettuer thread.
I'm not as disappointed by this loss as others, it has a Cardiff 2007 feel to it for me with the first half surreal-ness and the hammering we took from Jaco's whistle (I'll need a rewatch to see if all were deserved etc) so that seems to have lightened the anger for me.
Maybe I'll get shittier as the week goes on? Maybe I'm just mature enough to handle losses (nope that didn't sound right even as I typed it).
