Highlanders 2023
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@SouthernMann This might also be a problem with having 20% of the pro contracts in Dunedin. There must be players who do not want to be that far from their friends and families, especially when that is the bottom team.
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i mean, we made the 2020 Ta$man final with alot of these guys so we've definitely had much worse squads....id say injuries and keeping the best players on the pitch has been a bigger problem then the actual skill level
I find the idea players dont want to live away from home baffling although obviously have to accept it...but every one of my friends left "home" after high school, some over seas, some just elsewhere in NZ for uni and the overseas...we really have a problem if players ligitimately cant be lured to dunners to play sport for a living in one of if not the best grounds in the country even for half a year
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@Kiwiwomble Coaching (including selections) may also have been an issue. If you look at who are now in the Highlanders coaching group, I think there's reason for optimism.
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@Tim said in Highlanders 2023:
@SouthernMann This might also be a problem with having 20% of the pro contracts in Dunedin. There must be players who do not want to be that far from their friends and families, especially when that is the bottom team.
That is an argument that gets trotted out regularly. Yet, they have no issues going overseas to Japan or France. Or, if they aren't able to pick and choose they often end up playing provincial rugby in Manawatu, New Plymouth, Southland or Super Rugby in Dunedin. This is not Perth to Sydney. It is a 90 minute plane ride to Auckland.
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2023:
going overseas to Japan or France
There's a lot more money there, and a lot more excitement. A lot of players are from the central North Island, and Southland always struggle for players.
Just from a commercial perspective, it's insane to have 40% of the teams in the South Island.
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2023:
Of course I think you should be able to stop teams from hoarding talent. Break it down, these guys work for NZ Rugby(even under some weird franchise ownership model). NZ Rugby has a responsibility to its stakeholders to sell the best product, with the best players on the field each week. At the moment we have young players turning down regular playing gigs to be apart of top teams to play club rugby. We are sending these guys away in our national high performance programmes. It simply is not good enough from a national perspective. It flows down to a bit of a tough shit situation. You can't hoard players. Even if it is down to initial good management. We have a team in the Highlanders which is miles behind the rest. It makes NZ Rugby look weak when the Highlanders are battling in the lower level dross. This isn't just me whinging as a Highlanders fan. It is looking at how negative this is for NZ rugby as a whole. When the best teams third string player would start for the worst team. Something is wrong.
I think Highlanders benefited from some pretty poorly run organisations up until the last few years.
Speaking as a Blues fan The Blues were an absolute basketcase with a) letting local players go and b) because they were a basketcase players didn't want to hang around.
If the Blues were still a clown show the Likes of Lam, Kneepkens, Rush etc would be at the Highlanders and journeyman would be at the Blues instead (think Sam Prattley, Chris Noakes etc).
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@Tim said in Highlanders 2023:
@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2023:
going overseas to Japan or France
There's a lot more money there, and a lot more excitement. A lot of players are from the central North Island, and Southland always struggle for players.
Just from a commercial perspective, it's insane to have 40% of the teams in the South Island.
The early doors of my working career I worked in New plymouth, Rotorua, Christchurch, Auckland, Rolleston, Invercargill. You do what your company tells you. Rugby is a commodity. You are right commercially it makes no sense to have teams all over the country. We should have two in Auckland, one in Hamilton, Wellington and the SI. But we do need to make top quality rugby visible. Dunedin also currently has the best rugby stadium in the country. In terms of excitement. If I was a good looking 20 year old bloke. Dunedin has a lot of advantages.
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@FakatavaAllBlack said in Highlanders 2023:
@cgrant Mcclea as Injury cover possibly?although they'll probably look for a hb with more first class experience
Hastie will be the likely injury cover, as he is the halfback signed to replace Smith in 2024 and should be clear of injury by then. Faleafaga's job over the next nine months is to have a top quality club season and to get regular game time for Otago. He hasn't even got on the paddock for them yet. The Otago/Highlanders swt up also needs to work out how it wants to work around both him and Millar. The question for the franchise is, how does it position itself as a opportunity rich destination to get quality players in. Identify where its gaps are in two to three years time and go to market looking to fill those gaps. It has eight years + of de Groot as a starting prop, but who backs him up in the future. It has identified Jack Taylor and Henry Bell as its long-term hookers, but who fills out that group. Locks are developing nicely. Loosies with the likes of Withy, Michaels, Haig, Broughton, Tu'u have time on their side. The backs are the real problem. Otago/Highlanders had an opportunity to get Hotham, they kept their blinkers on and went with Arscott and Hastie. Modern Super Rugby isn't going to throw up diamonds like it did a decade ago. We need to admit this and focus on strong planning. Look at the squad with a 2025 + lens and identify the holes start planning to plug them with kids still in school or just out. The frustration is we see very few talented players leak out of other franchises, yet the Highlanders miss out on generational players like George Bell. A quality programme wouldn't let that happen.
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@SouthernMann problem would appear to start earlier though.
A talented teenage inside back from Kerikeri has just signed with Canterbury and the Crusaders academy, knocking back offers from both Northland and the Blues academy (played in blues age group this year)...when you look at career paths over the past 15+ years, it is a no brainer, for the kid and if I was his parent, I'd guide him that way too.
I know of another 10 from Whangarei (via St Kents) also in the Canterbury age group system.
These guys add to the Inside backs likely to come from within Canterbury too, and you have a blockage, possibly hindering if they opted to go elsewhere, but you can't force the.
There is no easy answer though, culture is a part, successful pathways is another.
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So top 23:?
1. E De Groot
2. A Makalio
3. S Ma’u
4. J Dickson
5. PP Parkinson
6. S Frizzell
7. B Harmon
8. M Mikaele Tu
9. A Smith
10. M Hunt
11. J Nareki
12. T Umaga-Jensen
13. F Paea
14. J Lowe
15. C Garden-Bachop16. R Marshall
17. L Inch
18. A Johnstone
19. F Holland
20. J Lentjes
21. F Fakatava
22. V Koroi
23. S Gilbert -
@Mackerzzzz i dont hate that team...if we can keep them on fit
Timu might actually push paea, he had a good NPC and might/should have developed a good combo with TUJ
im also not sure we'll have both koroi and gilbert as they're both 10/15 cover...but i cant say who id have instead so you might be right
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@taniwharugby said in Highlanders 2023:
@SouthernMann problem would appear to start earlier though.
A talented teenage inside back from Kerikeri has just signed with Canterbury and the Crusaders academy, knocking back offers from both Northland and the Blues academy (played in blues age group this year)...when you look at career paths over the past 15+ years, it is a no brainer, for the kid and if I was his parent, I'd guide him that way too.
I know of another 10 from Whangarei (via St Kents) also in the Canterbury age group system.
These guys add to the Inside backs likely to come from within Canterbury too, and you have a blockage, possibly hindering if they opted to go elsewhere, but you can't force the.
There is no easy answer though, culture is a part, successful pathways is another.
Toby Bell ??
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@SouthernMann said in Highlanders 2023:
@FakatavaAllBlack said in Highlanders 2023:
@cgrant Mcclea as Injury cover possibly?although they'll probably look for a hb with more first class experience
Hastie will be the likely injury cover, as he is the halfback signed to replace Smith in 2024 and should be clear of injury by then. Faleafaga's job over the next nine months is to have a top quality club season and to get regular game time for Otago. He hasn't even got on the paddock for them yet. The Otago/Highlanders swt up also needs to work out how it wants to work around both him and Millar. The question for the franchise is, how does it position itself as a opportunity rich destination to get quality players in. Identify where its gaps are in two to three years time and go to market looking to fill those gaps. It has eight years + of de Groot as a starting prop, but who backs him up in the future. It has identified Jack Taylor and Henry Bell as its long-term hookers, but who fills out that group. Locks are developing nicely. Loosies with the likes of Withy, Michaels, Haig, Broughton, Tu'u have time on their side. The backs are the real problem. Otago/Highlanders had an opportunity to get Hotham, they kept their blinkers on and went with Arscott and Hastie. Modern Super Rugby isn't going to throw up diamonds like it did a decade ago. We need to admit this and focus on strong planning. Look at the squad with a 2025 + lens and identify the holes start planning to plug them with kids still in school or just out. The frustration is we see very few talented players leak out of other franchises, yet the Highlanders miss out on generational players like George Bell. A quality programme wouldn't let that happen.
Keeping Hotham was never a realistic option IMO. Guy in theory becomes the Crusaders starting halfback by 2024 - never a possibility at the Landers with Fakatava ahead... and I'm going to throw it out there that he isn't quite as good as some say. Don't forget Hastie also was in the U20s a year ago. Arscott the weakest of the four, but he is a local guy to be your number three which I don't mind.
As for the new halfback this year, Derms has said experience... I wouldn't mind betting on Richard Judd, who is a more than solid option - Hastie hasn't even played a first class game, so to go in with him and Arscott as backups would be insane.
And on Bell, the Highlanders and Otago really tried to get him, but it was one of those situations that they couldn't really do anything about. The Crusaders track record of producing players, as well as genuine desires to go to Lincoln Uni meant we missed out...
And I do think at times we conveniently forget about the players we have poached (albeit in smaller quantities). Hotham (Waikato), Holland (Canterbury), Nareki, Koroi (Manawatu), Ma'u, J Ioane, Faleafaga, Asi (Auckland).
The Highlanders have finally got their act together with this proper academy, it will just take time for these players to come through - they are aware of the issues. We will always have less resources, so have a lower margin of error in terms of who we import, but if you get one star prospect every two years from out of town, that gives you a good core to work with to be competitive.
By 2025, I expect that the Highlanders will definitely have starting All Blacks in de Groot, Holland, Fakatava, and depending how they develop a selection of, Ma'u, Parkinson, Withy, Haig, Mikaele-Tu'u, Faleafaga, Millar and Umaga-Jensen will be in and around it.
That will be a good core of a side, I guess it shows a gaping hole at hooker (Which I'm confident Jack Taylor or Henry Bell won't solve in terms of being starters by that stage) and in the outside backs.
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@friedrugby who don't you think is quite as good as some say, Hotham or Fakatava?
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@Crazy-Horse I think he is referring to Hotham.
@Chris yeah Toby Bell, the other one that came down via St Kents is Jade Stewart
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@taniwharugby said in Highlanders 2023:
@Crazy-Horse I think he is referring to Hotham.
@Chris yeah Toby Bell, the other one that came down via St Kents is Jade Stewart
Way too early to tell I would have thought. But I do think Hotham has to be a smart error free player who masters the basics. I didn't see any major 'weapons' in his game to compensate ie bullet pass or lightening quick on his feet
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@Crazy-Horse said in Highlanders 2023:
@taniwharugby said in Highlanders 2023:
@Crazy-Horse I think he is referring to Hotham.
@Chris yeah Toby Bell, the other one that came down via St Kents is Jade Stewart
Way too early to tell I would have thought. But I do think Hotham has to be a smart error free player who masters the basics. I didn't see any major 'weapons' in his game to compensate ie bullet pass or lightening quick on his feet
I rate Hotham, good kicker and great turn off pace good runner and the Crusaders have missed that.
Great pass defends well I think Hotham is the complete package.
