RIP Martin Crowe

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="563041" data-time="1457317936">
<div>
Don't ruin it for us please...
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'm strictly amateur compared to you and all the other experts on there.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563038" data-time="1457317548">
<div>
Beefys efforts led to more test victories for the poms though.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'd never really thought about it until this comment - but who was the best batsman Crowe batted with throughout his career? Batting in a partnership helps considerably the fact he achieved such greatness with probably Wright and Jones being his best colleagues (and both were flawed/unorthodox in their own ways) is a huge feather in his cap.
 
Ditto Hadlee working with Chats and little else.
 
That isn't to say Edgar, Coney, Greatbatch, Smith etc didn't have their moments and talents - but when viewed against the attacks of that 1985-1995 decade they were all severely outmatched.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="563048" data-time="1457319409">I'd never really thought about it until this comment - but who was the best batsman Crowe batted with throughout his career? Batting in a partnership helps considerably the fact he achieved such greatness with probably Wright and Jones being his best colleagues (and both were flawed/unorthodox in their own ways) is a huge feather in his cap. 
Ditto Hadlee working with Chats and little else. 
That isn't to say Edgar, Coney, Greatbatch, Smith etc didn't have their moments and talents - but when viewed against the attacks of that 1985-1995 decade they were all severely outmatched.</blockquote>
 
J F Reid but he played less than 20 tests. 
Easily Jones, or Wright. 
Jones too finished with a very good record, just didn't play enough tests.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563038" data-time="1457317548">
<div>
Beefys efforts led to more test victories for the poms though.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Surely England HAD A BETTER 'TEAM' AROUND HIM AT THE TIME, MAKING HIS JOB EASIER, WHEREAS cROWE (damn caps) wouldn't have had the support with bat and ball to help, so a lot more weight on his shoulders.

Paekakboyz

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563024" data-time="1457316073">
<div>
Not arguing, just stating an opinion that differs from yours. Loads of guys look great when you arbitrarily take out stats here and there. Why not include pre 85 and post 91 ? aw yeah, cos that makes the average lower, that's why.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Hey buddy, lets not drag the Flag debate into this thread aye :whistle:

Godder

Smith was a world class keeper, even he's not revered like Sir Paddles or M Crowe.

akan004

If the great Wasim Akram considers Crowe the best batsman he has ever bowled to, who am I to argue.

Chris B.

Crowe's career stats are probably not good enough that he'll go down in history as a global great. Circumstances sort of conspired against him and he didn't get the same opportunity that Steve Waugh got to overcome a too early start in test cricket.
 
That doesn't matter. Anyone who watched him should recognize that they were watching one of the very best batsmen they will ever see.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="563226" data-time="1457395493">
<div>
Crowe's career stats are probably not good enough that he'll go down in history as a global great. Circumstances sort of conspired against him and he didn't get the same opportunity that Steve Waugh got to overcome a too early start in test cricket.
 
That doesn't matter. Anyone who watched him should recognize that they were watching one of the very best batsmen they will ever see.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I think that's a pretty damn fair summary CB. Still one or two "what if's" when considering his career in it's entirety. He's the best batsman NZ have ever had, no doubt. I guess when you pick apart stats you can pick and choose ones to back up an argument. An overall average of 45 to me is on the cusp of "very good" and "great" and perhaps subconsciously I might have pegged him in the former category prematurely, I did forget how sensational he was against the two Ws from Pakistan for example. The bad start in tests and the fucked knee at the end of his career sure didn't help so on the one hand you could argue he a) should have been better as a youngster and b) retired earlier. Then the average would have been over 50 and the conversation wouldn't even happen. As it stands I'd personally rate him our second best test player ever.
 
Virgil still talks out of his arse though :knuppel:

MajorRage

Players are always viewed favourably in the immediate aftermath of their passing - Look at Hughes as a classic example.
 
It's probably not the time to point that out though in the immediate vicinity.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563229" data-time="1457396684">
<div>
The bad start in tests and the fucked knee at the end of his career sure didn't help so on the one hand you could argue he a) should have been better as a youngster and retired earlier. Then the average would have been over 50 and the conversation wouldn't even happen. As it stands I'd personally rate him our second best test player ever.
 
Virgil still talks out of his arse though :knuppel:
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Lots of other factors in play as well. I think the comparison with Waugh is interesting, because they were near contemporaries and had a pretty similar career trajectory - except Waugh spent a substantial amount of time batting in the lower middle-order of one of the strongest batting line-ups the game has seen, while Crowe largely batted at 4 behind a succession of dodgy openers (and lots in difficult NZ conditions).
 
If you look at their cumulative career averages it tells a pretty stark tale.
 
Matches, Waugh, Crowe
10, 20.84, 20.68
20, 26.25, 28.18
30, 41.68, 38.17
40, 38.90, 42.11
50, 36.16, 45.24
60, 39.84, 47.25
70, 43.82, 47.98
80, 48.68
90, 50.13
100, 49.51
110, 50.41
120, 50.81
130, 50.23
140, 51.60
150, 49.38
160, 49.83

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="563237" data-time="1457402382">
<div>
Lots of other factors in play as well. I think the comparison with Waugh is interesting, because they were near contemporaries and had a pretty similar career trajectory - except Waugh spent a substantial amount of time batting in the lower middle-order of one of the strongest batting line-ups the game has seen, while Crowe largely batted at 4 behind a succession of dodgy openers (and lots in difficult NZ conditions).
 
If you look at their cumulative career averages it tells a pretty stark tale.
 
Matches, Waugh, Crowe
10, 20.84, 20.68
20, 26.25, 28.18
30, 41.68, 38.17
40, 38.90, 42.11
50, 36.16, 45.24
60, 39.84, 47.25
70, 43.82, 47.98
80, 48.68
90, 50.13
100, 49.51
110, 50.41
120, 50.81
130, 50.23
140, 51.60
150, 49.38
160, 49.83 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Fair call overall although the really shithouse openers really came to the fore towards the end of his career. Edgar and Wright could bat long periods at the very least and AH Jones and JF Reid knew one end of a bat from the other to put it mildly. Analysing stats is part of the reason I call Brian Lara the second best batsman of all time. Carrying a team that in his time went from sublime to ridiculous ( I think he still holds the records for the most test losses ) and only SIX not outs in his career ( most contemporaries of his had 20-30 ). Tendulkar had heaps of support, Lara's was often patchy at best.

Godder

And Wright and Franklin are one of our best ever opening partnerships, so it wasn't till after Wright retired that it went to pot.

gollum

Mike Atherton pointed out in the Times on the weekend he sits 15th post war on the 1st class averages list.
 
Ponting is 16th. Dravid 18th & Barry Richards 22nd.
 
And in 1984 Somerset signed Crowe to cover for Viv Richards & Joel Garner who weren't available. Crowe scored 1,500 runs & also took 44 wickets. So 1986 they dropped Richards & Garner for Crowe. Ian Botham threw a hissy fit & left the county. Crowe responded by scoring 1,600 runs @ 67.

Virgil

Read he ended up averaging just under 60 at his time with Somerset. 
His tally of first class runs during the domestic 1986/87 season is still a record too. Will dig out those stats when I get a chance.

? Offline

In 1987 Crowe became one of only a handful of men to score 4000 first-class runs in a calendar year.
 
Someone with a 1988 NZ Cricket Almanack would probably find this in the Happenings section of the Almanack.

Victor Meldrew

From the plethora of articles in the UK and world press, comments and tributes from people inside and outside the game, it's clear Martin Crowe was one of the most respected and special people to have played cricket. I just loved his articles on CricInfo - easily the best writer on modern cricket.in the last few years. 
 
This Guardian article sums it up:
 
"If our friendships are the best measure of our worth, then Martin Crowe must have been a great man. A better batsman even than his average signified, and a brighter thinker than his writing suggested. Crowe <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/mar/03/martin-crowe-obituary'>died of lymphoma</a> last Thursday, at the age of 53. In the last five days he has received an extraordinary, almost unprecedented, number of exquisite tributes. In this paper, Mike Selvey spoke of Croweâ€™s <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/mar/03/martin-crowe-batting-master-craftsman-mike-selvey'>â€œethos of fair play, responsible behaviour and enjoymentâ€</a>, and admired the â€œrational fortitudeâ€ with which he faced his illness. Greg Chappell described <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/mar/04/martin-crowes-insatiable-curiosity-made-him-the-thinking-mans-cricketer'>Croweâ€™s enquiring mind</a>, his obvious â€œtalent and athleticismâ€, his â€œintelligence and desire to succeedâ€. In The Times, Mike Atherton wrote of â€œone of the gameâ€™s keenest mindsâ€, a man who stood up to â€œrampant ego, selfishness, boorishness, bullyingâ€.
 
They go on. On <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://cricketwithballs.com/2016/03/03/the-hero-who-wore-a-white-helmet/'>Cricket With Balls</a>, Jarrod Kimber marvelled at the perfection of Croweâ€™s batting, a â€œbeautifully illustrated coaching manual come to lifeâ€. In Wisden India, Dileep Premachandran described the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-blog/martin-crowe-marked-by-nature-gone-too-soon/203067'>â€œunflinching honesty and vulnerabilityâ€</a> of Croweâ€™s writing. Cricinfo, where Crowe did much of that writing, surpassed itself and everyone else. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/978251.html'>Mark Nicholas wrote</a> that Crowe had become â€œan irresistible conscience for those of us left behindâ€. Ed Smith <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/978855.html'>addressed Croweâ€™s two lives</a>, the first as an â€œeffortless technicianâ€, â€œmajestic and lordlyâ€, the other as a thinker, â€œequally deft and assuredâ€. And then there was Gideon Haigh, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/890241.html'>whose eulogy for Crowe</a> was too fine to fillet for a single line:
 
Martinâ€™s love of cricket was fathomless: so passionate he needed to break from it from time to time; so profound he always found his way back to the fold. His great theme in the last while was anger and ill-feeling on the cricket field. The world was so full of it; why could cricket not provide some sort of refuge, a better example?
 
Few cricketers have received so many moving tributes, or provoked such an out-pouring of fine and thoughtful praise. Each article is affecting when read on its own, and taken all together the collection is entirely overwhelming. In death Crowe inspired the best of his colleagues in the press box, just as in life he once inspired it in his team-mates on the field. The sorrow of it is that he wasnâ€™t around to read all these words, but you hope they will provide some solace for his family in their grief. Crowe seems to have touched so many people. There are others, too: <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/977969.html'>the men he played with and against</a>, and the ones he mentored once he was done. 
 
As for the man himself, it feels like thereâ€™s little left to add, least of all from those, like me, who only knew him from what theyâ€™d seen or read on page and screen. Because, aside from their subject, the one thing that each of these articles shared was that their writers had a personal connection to Crowe. Selvey and Chappell both spoke of seeing him for a final time in New Zealand. Kimber mentioned meeting him in India. Smith, Atherton and Premachandran referred to their email conversations. Haigh and Nicholas talked at length about their friendships with him, Nicholasâ€™s forged early in Croweâ€™s playing days, when he was still a student, and Haighâ€™s made long after Crowe had quit playing, though not studying, the game. Friendships forged on cricket fields can sometimes seem just a little stronger and longer-lasting than those made elsewhere. And as Haigh says: â€œWith Martin there was no such thing as a trivial contact. Perhaps because it was his own aim, he made you want to be your best self.â€
 
Add them all up, and they serve as a remarkable testament to Croweâ€™s own qualities, and also to those of the game he loved so much. He shared that love with this disparate range of writers, from England, Australia, and India, some young, others old, some great Test players, others strictly amateur, all equally smitten with cricket. Croweâ€™s memory, like the sport, is so well-served by such an array of fine minds and talented writers. The internet has made so many publications from so many different places so much more accessible that readers are spoiled for choice.
 
Had Crowe been able to read any of these tributes, he would have been delighted, you guess, not only by the praise for his own batting, captaincy, and writing, but also the way in which his passing provoked such an expression of love for the sport itself, and so brilliantly illustrated the way in which so many people, from so many different parts, are bound together by their mutual enthusiasm for it. â€œWhat we can strive for is to restore our sportâ€™s lost integrity and loving feeling, so the fans can be lifted once more from their daily grind,â€ Crowe wrote <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/875999.html'>in his final column</a>. â€œInternational cricket, nation v nation, is about patriotism and a bit of tribalism, but not hate.â€ His death seems, for a time, to have bought the community around cricket just a little closer together, united as so many people in their feelings for him"

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Number 10" data-cid="563312" data-time="1457461097">In 1987 Crowe became one of only a handful of men to score 4000 first-class runs in a calendar year. 
Someone with a 1988 NZ Cricket Almanack would probably find this in the Happenings section of the Almanack.</blockquote>
 
Not bad for a 'very good' batsman

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="563308" data-time="1457457749">
<div>
Mike Atherton pointed out in the Times on the weekend he sits 15th post war on the 1st class averages list.
 
Ponting is 16th. Dravid 18th & Barry Richards 22nd.
 
And in 1984 Somerset signed Crowe to cover for Viv Richards & Joel Garner who weren't available. Crowe scored 1,500 runs & also took 44 wickets. So 1986 they dropped Richards & Garner for Crowe. Ian Botham threw a hissy fit & left the county. Crowe responded by scoring 1,600 runs @ 67.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Beefy quit cos he objected to how two of his mates got treated. Hardly throwing a hissy fit.
 
While I risk the wrath of a good old internet tough guy diatribe from Virgil by saying this it's worth remembering that first class stats only tell part of the story, I used the examples of Hick and Ramprakash earlier, well over 200 first class hundreds between them, both averaging over 50 yet respective test averages of 31 and 27 ( I was surprised Ramprakash played 52 tests, that's a shitload of chances to improve that he never took, I do remember Hick looking majestic when on song though ). Does that accumulation make them better than Crowe who "only" made 71? of course it doesn't. But you guys are using these arguments to support Crowe compared to other guys who may not have plundered runs at county level but who arguably did it better at test level which is of course the ultimate pinnacle of the sport.

taniwharugby

If Crowe played for WI you'd still have a pic of him on your wall MN5!

The Silver Fern

RIP Martin Crowe