All Blacks 2022
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
Havili are likely already locked in
god i fucking hope not
Me too, but I have very little trust left. I’m not sure if they’ll take Leicester!
you know, this whole thread just makes me pine for the absolutely never going to happen but whish it would
actual, frank discussion about why players are picked, or why they are not. And real talk too, not vaguaries.
Where is the real harm? Oooh we might give something away to the opposition? What, that they don't have already on the hours and hours of video available everywhere, and the people they employ to look at said video?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
Havili are likely already locked in
god i fucking hope not
Me too, but I have very little trust left. I’m not sure if they’ll take Leicester!
you know, this whole thread just makes me pine for the absolutely never going to happen but whish it would
actual, frank discussion about why players are picked, or why they are not. And real talk too, not vaguaries.
Where is the real harm? Oooh we might give something away to the opposition? What, that they don't have already on the hours and hours of video available everywhere, and the people they employ to look at said video?
Absolutely.
I’m usually not a hate on the media person, but the NZ rugby media is terrible now. Almost everything released is an editorial often either stealing ideas discussed here or pitching something to generate discussion (outrage).
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Wouldn’t be shocked if they have convinced themselves that some measure of “workrate” is all important, and are ignoring what is right in front of them.
Would explain a senile Grant Fox’s great enthusiasm for the utterly hopeless George Bridge.
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@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
Wouldn’t be shocked if they have convinced themselves that some measure of “workrate” is all important, and are ignoring what is right in front of them.
Would explain a senile Grant Fox’s great enthusiasm for the utterly hopeless George Bridge.
It wouldn't be the first time. Previous AB coaches convinced themselves that the industry of Caleb Ralph and Zac Guildford trumped the abilities of their rivals, just to name two
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
Wouldn’t be shocked if they have convinced themselves that some measure of “workrate” is all important, and are ignoring what is right in front of them.
Would explain a senile Grant Fox’s great enthusiasm for the utterly hopeless George Bridge.
It wouldn't be the first time. Previous AB coaches convinced themselves that the industry of Caleb Ralph and Zac Guildford trumped the abilities of their rivals, just to name two
On behalf of Roger Randle, James Kerr, Bruce Reihana and Hosea Gear amongst others I always get triggered reading this.
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I know Goodhue has been mentioned, but lets say he comes back and hits the field running, it will put him right in contention, and if he is playing well, I expect the combination with Havili will appeal to Fozzie and his crew.
One thing Goodhue does bring that is (was) better than other contenders is his defence - given how poor our defence has been, this would be a bonus.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
Wouldn’t be shocked if they have convinced themselves that some measure of “workrate” is all important, and are ignoring what is right in front of them.
Would explain a senile Grant Fox’s great enthusiasm for the utterly hopeless George Bridge.
It wouldn't be the first time. Previous AB coaches convinced themselves that the industry of Caleb Ralph and Zac Guildford trumped the abilities of their rivals, just to name two
On behalf of Roger Randle, James Kerr, Bruce Reihana and Hosea Gear amongst others I always get triggered reading this.
Don't forget Jonah Lomu! I overheard a woman at the 2003 ABs England test in Wellington say Caleb was better than Jonah. Bah! Jonah would have been better even still connected to his dialysis machine
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@mn5 said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2022:
@tim said in All Blacks 2022:
Wouldn’t be shocked if they have convinced themselves that some measure of “workrate” is all important, and are ignoring what is right in front of them.
Would explain a senile Grant Fox’s great enthusiasm for the utterly hopeless George Bridge.
It wouldn't be the first time. Previous AB coaches convinced themselves that the industry of Caleb Ralph and Zac Guildford trumped the abilities of their rivals, just to name two
On behalf of Roger Randle, James Kerr, Bruce Reihana and Hosea Gear amongst others I always get triggered reading this.
Don't forget Jonah Lomu! I overheard a woman at the 2003 ABs England test in Wellington say Caleb was better than Jonah. Bah! Jonah would have been better even still connected to his dialysis machine
Might have been my mates wife who hooked up with Caleb years ago.
He always chastised her for not picking up a better All Black !
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Just like people had idiotic levels of expectations of blindside flanker (they have to be the new Kaino), they have also have idiotic levels of expectations of the second five (they have to be the new Nonu). Gradually, the understanding seems to set in that the new 6 doesn't have to be another Kaino and that it is also ridiculous to continue making that comparison. There is only one Kaino. We don't need a new version; we need the balance of the backrow to be right. If the physicality can come from 7 and 8, if the 6 offers other advantages, then the 6 doesn't have to be that physical blindside. We need to look at the best combos, not just at the individual players making up the combos.
The same reasoning can be applied to the midfield. If the 12 isn't the physical specimen that Nonu was, it can still work if the balance of the midfield is right. It can work with a physical 13 (Rieko, Fainga'anuku offer that physicality in particular; Goodhue & ALB when healthy, although not as physical as the first two).
Havili has shown invaluable worth for the Crusaders in defence: he's one of the top tacklers in the backs in NZ and is very good at organising the defence. For the Crusaders, he's also a creator of tries. He's made try assists in practically every Crusaders game. Last year, he was excellent in the games until the SA test, but there were plenty that struggled from then on (Akira Ioane for example, do people want to dump him, too?).
It was clear, last year, that the ABs coaches used a game plan that didn't work and still stuck with it. Players had to stand too flat and were kicking too often. They were forced into structures that didn't suit their style of play. The ABs got away with it against all opponents except the stronger teams: South Africa, Ireland and France.
If the ABs coaches can come up with a game plan that uses the players' strengths, Havili (and others) can be huge assets to the ABs. It's not merely a case of the best SR players struggling with the step up to test level. It's Foster and co. struggling to design a game plan that works at test level. That includes forming the right combos and making them gel. Stick with them instead of chopping and changing.
I'm totally open to shifting Havili to the bench for someone else, if we can come up with someone else who's proven to be better. Jordie is promising at 12, but his problem is that he tries to do everything himself (defending, attacking, kicking, tackling) instead of directing others to do it. He's not an organiser (yet), but will learn (hopefully). RTS has proved himself at league test level, not rugby. He still has time, but it's premature to say he should be picked. Goodhue is more a 13 than a 12. Tupaea has 2nd season syndrome and has been very average, this year. PUJ and TUJ, how many SR games have they each played, played well and didn't break? Ridiculous to even suggest they should be considered, at the moment.
So maybe stop living in the past (Nonu/Smith) and realistically look at the best we have - and that definitely includes Havili - and improve the coaching. Make that backline gel, stick to combos, use game plans that uses their strenghts. And innovate, because we're too predictable.
Edit:
Oh, and stop being so negative!
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@stargazer we lack identity and a dependable style of play, we have no consistency in selection. Only rapid 1995 style improvement will save us from a poor result in France next year
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
If we need a squad wing/centre I'd take Fainga'anuku over Ennor. And speaking of Leicester, Wiki says his full name is Leicester Ofa Ki Wales Twickenham Fainga'anuku. That would be a commentators dream to mention that.
That's awesome
If PUJ isn't starting/playing regularly for the Hurricanes he isn't going to be in the frame for the ABs.
Works OK for Highlanders loosies!
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2022:
@canefan 95 was nothing like the situation now. We were inconsistent but had beaten the Boks and Lions in the preceding two seasons.
Fozzie's team beat those they should and lose the other games
Yeah my analogy isn't perfect. My recollection was that Laurie only settled on his top lineup just before the tourney, I don't remember us being mentioned as favourites. Right now we look at sea in every department
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@stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
Jordie is promising at 12, but his problem is that he tries to do everything himself (defending, attacking, kicking, tackling) instead of directing others to do it. He's not an organiser (yet), but will learn (hopefully).
I think this is a function of the team he is playing in. He has to do everything himself out of necessity when he's surrounded by the likes of JGB, Proctor or raw talent like Morgan, Love, Moorby and Sullivan.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2022:
@stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
Jordie is promising at 12, but his problem is that he tries to do everything himself (defending, attacking, kicking, tackling) instead of directing others to do it. He's not an organiser (yet), but will learn (hopefully).
I think this is a function of the team he is playing in. He has to do everything himself out of necessity when he's surrounded by the likes of JGB, Proctor or raw talent like Morgan, Love, Moorby and Sullivan.
Very much so, TJ the same. But TJ doesn't dial it back when he hits the ABs and stuffs it up, often.
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@stargazer good post, but I'm still not sold on Havili, particularly if we play RM.
If you have a weak tackling 10, you need a bigger player outside them. I think that' swhy Goodhue got the run there. I was a big Havili fan, but as you say he ran into a wall against SA and didn't really recover. Like JB, he was a player shifted around to try and fix a problem.
We still don't seem to know the style of rugby we want to play. And honestly, our biggest headaches are the forwards, particularly the tight forwards, not in the backs. Arguing about which of two band aided 12s should play is not tackling (haha) the core issues our pack has.
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@stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
Just like people had idiotic levels of expectations of blindside flanker (they have to be the new Kaino), they have also have idiotic levels of expectations of the second five (they have to be the new Nonu). Gradually, the understanding seems to set in that the new 6 doesn't have to be another Kaino and that it is also ridiculous to continue making that comparison. There is only one Kaino. We don't need a new version; we need the balance of the backrow to be right. If the physicality can come from 7 and 8, if the 6 offers other advantages, then the 6 doesn't have to be that physical blindside. We need to look at the best combos, not just at the individual players making up the combos.
The same reasoning can be applied to the midfield. If the 12 isn't the physical specimen that Nonu was, it can still work if the balance of the midfield is right. It can work with a physical 13 (Rieko, Fainga'anuku offer that physicality in particular; Goodhue & ALB when healthy, although not as physical as the first two).
Havili has shown invaluable worth for the Crusaders in defence: he's one of the top tacklers in the backs in NZ and is very good at organising the defence. For the Crusaders, he's also a creator of tries. He's made try assists in practically every Crusaders game. Last year, he was excellent in the games until the SA test, but there were plenty that struggled from then on (Akira Ioane for example, do people want to dump him, too?).
It was clear, last year, that the ABs coaches used a game plan that didn't work and still stuck with it. Players had to stand too flat and were kicking too often. They were forced into structures that didn't suit their style of play. The ABs got away with it against all opponents except the stronger teams: South Africa, Ireland and France.
If the ABs coaches can come up with a game plan that uses the players' strengths, Havili (and others) can be huge assets to the ABs. It's not merely a case of the best SR players struggling with the step up to test level. It's Foster and co. struggling to design a game plan that works at test level. That includes forming the right combos and making them gel. Stick with them instead of chopping and changing.
I'm totally open to shifting Havili to the bench for someone else, if we can come up with someone else who's proven to be better. Jordie is promising at 12, but his problem is that he tries to do everything himself (defending, attacking, kicking, tackling) instead of directing others to do it. He's not an organiser (yet), but will learn (hopefully). RTS has proved himself at league test level, not rugby. He still has time, but it's premature to say he should be picked. Goodhue is more a 13 than a 12. Tupaea has 2nd season syndrome and has been very average, this year. PUJ and TUJ, how many SR games have they each played, played well and didn't break? Ridiculous to even suggest they should be considered, at the moment.
So maybe stop living in the past (Nonu/Smith) and realistically look at the best we have - and that definitely includes Havili - and improve the coaching. Make that backline gel, stick to combos, use game plans that uses their strenghts. And innovate, because we're too predictable.
Edit:
Oh, and stop being so negative!Good post, but I had to check a few of those claims.
From a look at the ESPN stats, I there may be some recency bias in your view.
He has been improving as the season has progressed, but in the early games he was missing 3 and 4 tackles a game (Canes made 8, missed 3, Landers made 7, missed 4) but has had three good games lately missing 2, 0, and 1 against the Chiefs (12 made, 2 missed), Landers (15 made, 0 missed) and Canes (12 made, 1 missed) in the recent three games. Over the season he basically averages 12 made and 2 missed - a bit Owen Franksy.
He has 3 try assists total (2 versus the Chiefs in the second game and 1 versus the Landers two weeks ago). This last week he made the offload to create a try as well so it is worth understanding that the stats do not catch everything (as always). He averages one per game (quite consistently too with 6 in total from 6 games) but according to Super stats the leaders who might overlap with him are Tupaea who has 12 in total (and Barrett is there also with 12).
He averages 8 carries a game with 30 metres on average.
I'm not convinced about him at 12 mainly because I'm not satisfied that he can carry into contact effectively enough. If we are going to play him as second-five-eight then we need lots of runners around him and some big bodies as well so Leicester and Clarke would be two who might need to be part of the mix.
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@gt12 You've just reinforced my point. The ballance in the midfield needs to be right. The Chiefs v Crusaders game (in Hamilton) is a good example of a game where this worked really well, with Havili and Fainga'anuku combining. I prefer that over the Havili - Ennor combo. What's wrong with big runners like Leicester and Clarke wreaking havoc in the backline?
Oh, and which player doesn't usually improve over the season? Most players don't have their top form in the first few games.
On top of that, the importance of stats is limited and they only tell part of the story. For example, in the Hurricanes v Crusaders game, he broke the line, passed to - I think - Grace who passed to Jordan to score. So Grace gets the try assist, while it was Havili who created the scoring opportunity. That happens often.
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@frank said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
It's a sensible approach on the assumption Havili has improved his game.
Has he though?
He is the same type of player - a jinky 12 with a kicking game.I honestly don't know, I just think Foster will start him at 12 on the assumption he will have learnt from last year and take his Test experience as a plus
