GOAT
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@mariner4life caught the tail end of something on Nat Geo the other day where they were.goi g over some of the things that shaped the 80s, and how Nike was pretty small fry when they pitched for Jordan, but his ability and thier marketing sent both the the stratosphere, and Jordan was the fore runner for Tiger in terms of Nike getting on board early offering a shit ton more than the market, and winning.
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@taniwharugby said in GOAT:
@mariner4life caught the tail end of something on Nat Geo the other day where they were.goi g over some of the things that shaped the 80s, and how Nike was pretty small fry when they pitched for Jordan, but his ability and thier marketing sent both the the stratosphere, and Jordan was the fore runner for Tiger in terms of Nike getting on board early offering a shit ton more than the market, and winning.
Jordan, and Nike was a perfect storm. Signing him from college was a masterstroke. I seem to recall that being part of the Sonny Vaccaro documentary. But I might be wrong. It is in Shoe Dogs by Phil Knight
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@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
And I think Lewis and Tyson are great examples of this. Lewis is actually older than Tyson but Tyson's peak was the late 80s whereas Lewis peaked 10-15 years later.
Similarly with Holyfield and Tyson - Holyfield beat Tyson twice but by that time Tyson was past his prime and Holyfield was juiced to the gills.
That Holyfield doco on Netflix is great viewing.
Really sad he tarnished his legacy recently with that farce of a fight he was involved in. Not the first and certainly won’t be the last fighter to do that though.
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@victor-meldrew said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Phil Taylor. 16 world championships, plus carried far more weight to height than most of the above mentioned, 19 stones of dart-pushing momentum on a 5 foot 8 or so frame. Heavier than 6"6' Anthony Joshua at his flabbiest peak.
Edit: I guess my cryptic point is it would be interesting and useful to have some meta-criteria so out there "sports" like darts are considered or not on an equal footing...
That's an interesting point. Someone once said Damon Hill was the greatest development driver he had ever seen in Formula One, who could tune a good car into a truly great one better than anyone, but was an average racing driver.
That's a great skill, but is it a truly sporting skill?
your point is more interesting than mine
It reminds me of that world-famous player or athlete who was famously said to be a great but not particularly good and now I am racking my brain as to who that was, whether that was in cricket or tennis or.. -
@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
And I think Lewis and Tyson are great examples of this. Lewis is actually older than Tyson but Tyson's peak was the late 80s whereas Lewis peaked 10-15 years later.
Similarly with Holyfield and Tyson - Holyfield beat Tyson twice but by that time Tyson was past his prime and Holyfield was juiced to the gills.
That Holyfield doco on Netflix is great viewing.
Really sad he tarnished his legacy recently with that farce of a fight he was involved in. Not the first and certainly won’t be the last fighter to do that though.
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour? Not sure we can call him a great if he can't defeat Kevin Barry in the ring
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@taniwharugby said in GOAT:
@mariner4life caught the tail end of something on Nat Geo the other day where they were.goi g over some of the things that shaped the 80s, and how Nike was pretty small fry when they pitched for Jordan, but his ability and thier marketing sent both the the stratosphere, and Jordan was the fore runner for Tiger in terms of Nike getting on board early offering a shit ton more than the market, and winning.
Iirc from One Last Dance, Jordan wasn't interested in even meeting with Nike and his parents convinced him otherwise. Converse were the big brand at that time.
IMHO GOATS are way too difficult to rank across sports. There are so many different skill-sets, individual sport vs team sport, participation numbers etc. And then even within a sport how do you define the GOAT when the individual members of a team have such different functions? For instance a goalkeeper vs a striker.
Having said that, being able to perform at elite level in your 40s (and at farking 50) is absolutely astonishing. At the very least it gives (false) hope to this 43 year old!
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@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
Boxing is hard to measure, so many variables ( era, who they fought, if they fought in their absolute prime etc )
And I think Lewis and Tyson are great examples of this. Lewis is actually older than Tyson but Tyson's peak was the late 80s whereas Lewis peaked 10-15 years later.
Similarly with Holyfield and Tyson - Holyfield beat Tyson twice but by that time Tyson was past his prime and Holyfield was juiced to the gills.
That Holyfield doco on Netflix is great viewing.
Really sad he tarnished his legacy recently with that farce of a fight he was involved in. Not the first and certainly won’t be the last fighter to do that though.
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour? Not sure we can call him a great if he can't defeat Kevin Barry in the ring
Barry was saved by an absolute freak occurrence…….but can still go into the pub and tell people he beat “The Real Deal” back in the day.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in GOAT:
Jordan wasn't interested in even meeting with Nike
yeah this program said as much too, they were small, it didnt mention Converse, said that for a period, most people referred to Nike as 'Mike'
I'll see what the doco was, it included Run DMC signing with Adidas, which was the first time a sports brand had signed a band.
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Using the Kelly Slater model in athletics,
Ed Moses
Wiki
Edwin Corley Moses (born August 31, 1955) is an American former track and field athlete who won gold medals in the 400 m hurdles at the 1976 and 1984 Olympics.
Between 1977 and 1987, Moses won 107 consecutive finals (122 consecutive races) and set the world record in the event four times.
——
Would have won in 80 too if the US had gone to Moscow
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@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour?
from 2007
Late Wednesday, SI.com reported that the name "Evan Fields" appeared on law enforcement documents reviewed by the Web site in connection with the Mobile investigation. SI.com dialed a phone number associated with "Fields" that was listed on one of the documents, and Holyfield answered the call. "Fields" listed birth date in the document -- Oct. 19, 1962 -- also is the same as Holyfield's. According to SI.com, the individual who authorities believe to be Holyfield picked up prescriptions that came from Applied Pharmacy. According to records reviewed by SI.com, Holyfield picked up vials of testosterone, two vials of Glukor (a drug believed to be used during and after steroid cycles) and injection supplies. Less than a week later, according to the document, he picked up five vials of Saizen, a brand of HGH, and related supplies. -
@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour?
from 2007
Late Wednesday, SI.com reported that the name "Evan Fields" appeared on law enforcement documents reviewed by the Web site in connection with the Mobile investigation. SI.com dialed a phone number associated with "Fields" that was listed on one of the documents, and Holyfield answered the call. "Fields" listed birth date in the document -- Oct. 19, 1962 -- also is the same as Holyfield's. According to SI.com, the individual who authorities believe to be Holyfield picked up prescriptions that came from Applied Pharmacy. According to records reviewed by SI.com, Holyfield picked up vials of testosterone, two vials of Glukor (a drug believed to be used during and after steroid cycles) and injection supplies. Less than a week later, according to the document, he picked up five vials of Saizen, a brand of HGH, and related supplies.Performance enhancing drugs aren’t as much a factor for fighters as one might think. It’s fairly obvious Tyson Fury isn’t on them for example.
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@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour?
from 2007
Late Wednesday, SI.com reported that the name "Evan Fields" appeared on law enforcement documents reviewed by the Web site in connection with the Mobile investigation. SI.com dialed a phone number associated with "Fields" that was listed on one of the documents, and Holyfield answered the call. "Fields" listed birth date in the document -- Oct. 19, 1962 -- also is the same as Holyfield's. According to SI.com, the individual who authorities believe to be Holyfield picked up prescriptions that came from Applied Pharmacy. According to records reviewed by SI.com, Holyfield picked up vials of testosterone, two vials of Glukor (a drug believed to be used during and after steroid cycles) and injection supplies. Less than a week later, according to the document, he picked up five vials of Saizen, a brand of HGH, and related supplies.Performance enhancing drugs aren’t as much a factor for fighters as one might think. It’s fairly obvious Tyson Fury isn’t on them for example.
Apples and Oranges.
Holyfield was a cruiserweight (so under 200 pounds) who had to put on weight to go up to heavyweight.
Tyson Fury weighed in at 277 pounds for the 3rd Wilder fight.
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@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour?
from 2007
Late Wednesday, SI.com reported that the name "Evan Fields" appeared on law enforcement documents reviewed by the Web site in connection with the Mobile investigation. SI.com dialed a phone number associated with "Fields" that was listed on one of the documents, and Holyfield answered the call. "Fields" listed birth date in the document -- Oct. 19, 1962 -- also is the same as Holyfield's. According to SI.com, the individual who authorities believe to be Holyfield picked up prescriptions that came from Applied Pharmacy. According to records reviewed by SI.com, Holyfield picked up vials of testosterone, two vials of Glukor (a drug believed to be used during and after steroid cycles) and injection supplies. Less than a week later, according to the document, he picked up five vials of Saizen, a brand of HGH, and related supplies.Performance enhancing drugs aren’t as much a factor for fighters as one might think. It’s fairly obvious Tyson Fury isn’t on them for example.
Apples and Oranges.
Holyfield was a cruiserweight (so under 200 pounds) who had to put on weight to go up to heavyweight.
Tyson Fury weighed in at 277 pounds for the 3rd Wilder fight.
Absolutely but the point I’m making is they don’t make someone a better fighter. Less of a factor than in other power based or endurance events
Holyfield was a fucken warrior though. Tough as they come
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@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@kiwimurph said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Did he take HGH/steroids as well or was that a rumour?
from 2007
Late Wednesday, SI.com reported that the name "Evan Fields" appeared on law enforcement documents reviewed by the Web site in connection with the Mobile investigation. SI.com dialed a phone number associated with "Fields" that was listed on one of the documents, and Holyfield answered the call. "Fields" listed birth date in the document -- Oct. 19, 1962 -- also is the same as Holyfield's. According to SI.com, the individual who authorities believe to be Holyfield picked up prescriptions that came from Applied Pharmacy. According to records reviewed by SI.com, Holyfield picked up vials of testosterone, two vials of Glukor (a drug believed to be used during and after steroid cycles) and injection supplies. Less than a week later, according to the document, he picked up five vials of Saizen, a brand of HGH, and related supplies.Performance enhancing drugs aren’t as much a factor for fighters as one might think. It’s fairly obvious Tyson Fury isn’t on them for example.
Apples and Oranges.
Holyfield was a cruiserweight (so under 200 pounds) who had to put on weight to go up to heavyweight.
Tyson Fury weighed in at 277 pounds for the 3rd Wilder fight.
Absolutely but the point I’m making is they don’t make someone a better fighter. Less of a factor than in other power based or endurance events
Holyfield was a fucken warrior though. Tough as they come
Hollyfield really bulked up. My suspicions were more when he suddenly seemed to develop heart problems...seems to be correlated..
..Anabolic Steroids Increase Risk for Heart Disease in Young and MiddleAged Men
Study finds long-term steroid use may have a permanent impact on heart health.
but when I read on it appeared he had a heart problem from birth previously undetected.
Yes he was a true warrior.
Anyway the person I heard described as great but not necessarily good as a player was I think Campese. But I may have also heard it about Ian Botham (I was lucky enough to see him play rather well after critics had written him off). -
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
@victor-meldrew said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Phil Taylor. 16 world championships, plus carried far more weight to height than most of the above mentioned, 19 stones of dart-pushing momentum on a 5 foot 8 or so frame. Heavier than 6"6' Anthony Joshua at his flabbiest peak.
Edit: I guess my cryptic point is it would be interesting and useful to have some meta-criteria so out there "sports" like darts are considered or not on an equal footing...
That's an interesting point. Someone once said Damon Hill was the greatest development driver he had ever seen in Formula One, who could tune a good car into a truly great one better than anyone, but was an average racing driver.
That's a great skill, but is it a truly sporting skill?
your point is more interesting than mine
It reminds me of that world-famous player or athlete who was famously said to be a great but not particularly good and now I am racking my brain as to who that was, whether that was in cricket or tennis or..There's a greatness which comes from being consistent and also in overcoming an opponent which is very different from greatness in the skill department, I guess.
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@victor-meldrew said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
@victor-meldrew said in GOAT:
@nostrildamus said in GOAT:
Phil Taylor. 16 world championships, plus carried far more weight to height than most of the above mentioned, 19 stones of dart-pushing momentum on a 5 foot 8 or so frame. Heavier than 6"6' Anthony Joshua at his flabbiest peak.
Edit: I guess my cryptic point is it would be interesting and useful to have some meta-criteria so out there "sports" like darts are considered or not on an equal footing...
That's an interesting point. Someone once said Damon Hill was the greatest development driver he had ever seen in Formula One, who could tune a good car into a truly great one better than anyone, but was an average racing driver.
That's a great skill, but is it a truly sporting skill?
your point is more interesting than mine
It reminds me of that world-famous player or athlete who was famously said to be a great but not particularly good and now I am racking my brain as to who that was, whether that was in cricket or tennis or..There's a greatness which comes from being consistent and also in overcoming an opponent which is very different from greatness in the skill department, I guess.
and a greatness in the sense of great (if mercurial) skills suddenly meets great moment situation...
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You'll figure out pretty quickly where this post is going.
I finished The Last Dance last night. Unequivocally one of the best series I have ever seen, brought back so many memories and it was great to get a real insight into what that team, and what Jordan specifically, was all about.
I have written multiple times over the years about my admiration for Steve Waugh on this forum, perhaps rivalling some of MN5's efforts in relaying the same thing over and over again. Waugh, for me, had a mental toughness & a desire to win that didn't allow any single thing to stand in his way. As we watched the AB's drop out of World Cups, in my view due to a lack of proper leadership, I longed for a Steve Waugh to captain us. WE finally got that with Richie, although he did have to grow into a bit.
The thing is about Waugh though, is that I don't think he would even be in my top 50 naturally talented cricketers. It was all about his mental game that pushed him to the levels he achieved. Another Aussie, Lleyton Hewitt, springs to mind here as well.
Can you imagine what either of these two would have achieved had they had serious talent. Like top 5 all time talent. That, for me, is Michael Jordan. When I was telling people I was finally watching this show the responses were close to unanimous. It's awesome, and he's a bit of an asshole. I agree with the former, but certainly not the latter. He just had that drive to win, that extra 5% up top which pushed him further, harder & above and beyond what others could do. He pushed people hard, he took on his opposition & he let nothing, absolutely nothing, get in way. He stepped up time after time after time. Took the game winning shots, missed the game winning shots and kept coming back.
I am in absolute awe of him. Steve Waugh application on top of Brian Lara talent.
He's the GOAT for me.
Nobody else is even close.
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Imo it's definitely M Jordan, with Tom Brady a distant second, and Kelly Slater third.
Jordan had a drive to win like no other, were he would push intill asshole stage. He also had talent like few others
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@Mackerzzzz said in GOAT:
Imo it's definitely M Jordan, with Tom Brady a distant second, and Kelly Slater third.
Jordan had a drive to win like no other, were he would push intill asshole stage. He also had talent like few others
I just don't think it makes him an asshole. Just incredibly driven.
The interviews certainly didn't suggest he was an asshole. Yeah, he seriously pushed people who weren't up to his standards etc but that should be expected if you asked me. He acknowledged he crossed the line a few times (but who doesn't) and those he pushed, and crossed the line with, seemed to have serious respect for him.
