All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
Good point then he took over a struggling Crusaders under Blackadder and turned them into a team that won 5 titles in a row.Straight away.
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I don't necessarily disagree but reserve the right to question whether he is the BEST choice when there is a strong likelihood that he will continue the selection of players that have proven to be defective.
If he can bring in a different style that plays to their strengths and doesn't expose their weaknesses then fair enough. I'm just asking the question. -
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
No but we sure haven't made a good decision in appointing Foster, we would not have been worse of would we ? .And maybe in a better position than we are now if they had gone with Razor..
I would prefer to see Robertson get a chance on the back of being a winning coach year in year out.
But I would rather have Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck coaching the AB's than the present crop of losers.I don't necessarily disagree but reserve the right to question whether he is the BEST choice when there is a strong likelihood that he will continue the selection of players that have proven to be defective.
If he can bring in a different style that plays to their strengths and doesn't expose their weaknesses then fair enough. I'm just asking the question.Well we won't know unless he gets a chance.He might have a different idea for international rugby than the Crusaders.
One of his strengths is bringing in other good coaches to cover all the bases.
So I think we would get a great coaching team not just razor. -
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
He also coached the U20s to their worst finish (until Philpott, who also won the title) the following year. Ironically, I remember the 2016 U20 forward pack being outmuscled by Ireland.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
I think one of the good bits of Robertson's CV was the u20 JWC win in 2015. NZ hadn't won it for a few years at that point, but he selected and coached a good team that year. He even had a certain Akira Ioane playing at no 8 😉
He also coached the U20s to their worst finish (until Philpott, who also won the title) the following year. Ironically, I remember the 2016 U20 forward pack being outmuscled by Ireland.
Coaching U/20s is tough as you have a limited player pool, depending on the strength of players in the particular age groups coming through.The years are inclined to go in cycles one or 2 good years then some bad ones.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Judging by Foster's comments recently I doubt we are going to see much change in the 23 apart from enforced ones.
Starting Smith is definitely an option, so is another rejig of the loosies. The midfield/bench is an enforced change as is the playmaker cover.
I expect to see something close to....
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Joe Moody
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Dane Coles
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Nepo Laulala
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Brodie Retallick
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Samuel Whitelock – captain
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Dalton Papalii
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Sam Cane
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Ardie Savea
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Aaron Smith1
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Richie Mo’unga
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Sevu Reece
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Quinn Tupaea
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Rieko Ioane (45)
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Will Jordan
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Jordie Barrett
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Samisoni Taukei'aho
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Karl Tu’inukuafe
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Ofa Tuungafasi
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Tupou Vaa’i
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Akira Ioane
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TJ Perenara
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David Havili
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Damien McKenzie
I really really don’t see the point of tu’inukuafe. It was a heartwarming little story at the start when he first made the ABs but he is just not good enough.
For some reason he looks amazingly unfit on the field.
The props need a big overhaul imho, a real weakness at the moment.
I find it odd that of all countries, it's NZ that has an issue finding props who can scrum and run with the ball.
De Groot is developing nicely. What happened to Atu Moli?
There are some promising ones coming through as well, no? How is Tamaiti Williams going? Alex Hodgman?
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@tim said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
The issue with starting Ethan Blackadder in the All Blacks' back row
Blackadder is not the finished product, and isn't expected to be, but, in that respect, the hype needs to be dampened considerably.
Thanks for posting that, an interesting article. Good to see a journalist actually discuss the different roles
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@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@bovidae said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris Shows how good Rennie was then.
It probably does, would not be unhappy to see him as AB coach either.
Certainly he's got the Wallaby forwards playing better than they were.
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All the comments about the French Test are getting crowded out. Can we keep this thread about selections for this week etc?
More general stuff about changing coaches etc can go in the AB 2021 thread
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lots of chat about the props being shit but Joe Moody not being mentioned once. What exactly does Joe Moody bring? Other than a couple of penalties a game?
His running game has gone. He's hardly moving furniture at ruck time, and he's not exactly beating up on tightheads at scrum time either
None of our props are worth a fucking thing at the moment, other than holding our ball steady at scrum time.
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@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
All the comments about the French Test are getting crowded out. Can we keep this thread about selections for this week etc?
More general stuff about changing coaches etc can go in the AB 2021 thread
and to bring it around to this
i would cut Foster an awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
i would cut Foster an awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
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@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
yep. Change at least one loose forward (i would change 2, actually probably 3) as well.
Fuck all you can do at prop except bring Ofa T in and hope he keeps his brain connected
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
yep. Change at least one loose forward (i would change 2, actually probably 3) as well.
Fuck all you can do at prop except bring Ofa T in and hope he keeps his brain connected
I like the idea of dropping Retallick for Vaa'i. It sends a signal that no one is safe if they don't perform
Surely QT will start?
I'd start Coles and have ST on the bench. Taylor has earned a demotion.
Loosies - Cane/Savea/Ioane with Papali'i on the bench. I hope Cane is ready for a hard Test..
Props? No idea. They are all a bit shit. Ofa has been disappointing since returning from injury.
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@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
yep. Change at least one loose forward (i would change 2, actually probably 3) as well.
Fuck all you can do at prop except bring Ofa T in and hope he keeps his brain connected
I like the idea of dropping Retallick for Vaa'i. It sends a signal that no one is safe if they don't perform
Surely QT will start?
I'd start Coles and have ST on the bench. Taylor has earned a demotion.
Loosies - Cane/Savea/Ioane with Papali'i on the bench. I hope Cane is ready for a hard Test..
Props? No idea. They are all a bit shit. Ofa has been disappointing since returning from injury.
De Groot? Too soon?
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@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
yep. Change at least one loose forward (i would change 2, actually probably 3) as well.
Fuck all you can do at prop except bring Ofa T in and hope he keeps his brain connected
I like the idea of dropping Retallick for Vaa'i. It sends a signal that no one is safe if they don't perform
Surely QT will start?
I'd start Coles and have ST on the bench. Taylor has earned a demotion.
Loosies - Cane/Savea/Ioane with Papali'i on the bench. I hope Cane is ready for a hard Test..
Props? No idea. They are all a bit shit. Ofa has been disappointing since returning from injury.
yea, i would start Ioane, Cane, and Sotutu actually. With one of Papali'i or Blackadder on the bench (both bloody good players who are both still learning).
Savea should be on the chopping block if we're serious. But he will start, because there isn't much in the way of accountability.
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
yep. Change at least one loose forward (i would change 2, actually probably 3) as well.
Fuck all you can do at prop except bring Ofa T in and hope he keeps his brain connected
I like the idea of dropping Retallick for Vaa'i. It sends a signal that no one is safe if they don't perform
Surely QT will start?
I'd start Coles and have ST on the bench. Taylor has earned a demotion.
Loosies - Cane/Savea/Ioane with Papali'i on the bench. I hope Cane is ready for a hard Test..
Props? No idea. They are all a bit shit. Ofa has been disappointing since returning from injury.
De Groot? Too soon?
Maybe. I suspect the selectors will go for experience in the front row though
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@duluth said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
awful lot of slack if he chucked the baby out with the bathwater this week and just threw newbies in there everywhere. Lets see what they are made of.
Vaa'i, Tupaea, Taukei'aho?
yep. Change at least one loose forward (i would change 2, actually probably 3) as well.
Fuck all you can do at prop except bring Ofa T in and hope he keeps his brain connected
I like the idea of dropping Retallick for Vaa'i. It sends a signal that no one is safe if they don't perform
Surely QT will start?
I'd start Coles and have ST on the bench. Taylor has earned a demotion.
Loosies - Cane/Savea/Ioane with Papali'i on the bench. I hope Cane is ready for a hard Test..
Props? No idea. They are all a bit shit. Ofa has been disappointing since returning from injury.
yea, i would start Ioane, Cane, and Sotutu actually. With one of Papali'i or Blackadder on the bench (both bloody good players who are both still learning).
Savea should be on the chopping block if we're serious. But he will start, because there isn't much in the way of accountability.
That Ardie is seen as indispensable sums up the problems. We were told at the outset they were going to address our passiveness and yet he's named constantly.
