The All Black's current midfield balance.
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I like what Havili has brought to the table at a time when we had few options - however, agreed, he isn't a long-term option. Will be interesting what happens at the Crusaders next year. I imagine he continues at 12, but Goodhue is on the slower side for a 13.
For me, 12 is a position in which you rarely see someone come out of school and dominate at. Presumably the pace of the defense is a lot faster at the professional level, and 12 is probably one of the positions where you get the least time to make a decision. When you add in that you have to be strong defensively, physically quite large to ensure you're not getting forced backwards on the carry, a decent kicking option in case the 10 is in a ruck and a good playmaking option under pressure - it's a long list of requirements, particularly for players who were likely able to rely on simply being the biggest and fastest at schoolboy level.
In our early U20 teams we had a lot of guys who perhaps didn't have the size to make it at the top level (TJ Faiane, Tei Walden, Shaun Treeby), but in more recent years we've been selecting a larger midfield (Tele'a, Gregory, T Umaga-Jensen). I guess the question mark for these larger guys is whether they have the skillset needed, and particularly, whether they can perform these skills under pressure. Some of this development can only happen if they're given enough game time - and some of it dependent on the players themselves and how much they're willing to work on it. Too often, I feel, we're relying on stopgap options at 12 who we know will never be good enough, rather than allowing some of more promising options to get better (e.g. Sio Tomkinson ahead of Scott Gregory).
Aside from Havili and Lienert-Brown, the players I see who have the potential to wear the 12 jersey over the next few years (edit - by few years I mean 2 - 6 years) are:
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Quinn Tupaea - the most obvious. He will likely be getting consistent game time, crucially alongside Anton Lienert-Brown. He can break tackles easily. I'd like to see him round out his game a little better - I think he has the skills, so likely just needs to get a little better at performing these under pressure. This takes time.
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Scott Gregory - Played well this year for the Highlanders. He's big and can cart the ball up. Again, he needs work on the playmaking side of things. I'd like to see the Highlanders persist with him. Unless TUJ stops getting injured, he will likely get a lot of game time in the future
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Thomas Umaga-Jensen - Big question mark is whether he can actually get enough games together to put forward his case for selection, let alone get a bit of experience under his belt.
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Peter Umaga-Jensen - It would be good to see more of him at 12, but he looks to have the size and skills. Will likely have the 12 jersey for the Hurricanes going forward (or at least you'd think he would - with the Canes coaches, you never know).
There are a few other players who I think have/could develop the skillset required to be an AB 12, but I don't think they'll get the time in the jersey that they'd need (e.g. Leicester Fainga'anuku, Jordie Barrett (why would we, at this point?).
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Personally, I'd rather we focus on Tupaea rather than a stop-gap option. To me, he currently looks like the most promising out of our options. Give him the experience and support he needs, and I'm sure he'll only get better. There might be a game or two we'd lose due to a mistake, but he'll only be better for it in the long-run
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Happy to be wrong about this in years to come, but I do not see anything yet in Tupaea's game that suggests he is the long term answer. He has been ok, but what does he bring to the table that others don't? He does not seem bigger, or quicker, or more intelligent, or a better passer, or a better tackler. Those that reckon he is the long term answer-why? What does he do better than the other options?
I don't even recall Chiefs fans going on about him this year.
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@bobily2 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I like what Havili has brought to the table at a time when we had few options - however, agreed, he isn't a long-term option. Will be interesting what happens at the Crusaders next year. I imagine he continues at 12, but Goodhue is on the slower side for a 13.
For me, 12 is a position in which you rarely see someone come out of school and dominate at. Presumably the pace of the defense is a lot faster at the professional level, and 12 is probably one of the positions where you get the least time to make a decision. When you add in that you have to be strong defensively, physically quite large to ensure you're not getting forced backwards on the carry, a decent kicking option in case the 10 is in a ruck and a good playmaking option under pressure - it's a long list of requirements, particularly for players who were likely able to rely on simply being the biggest and fastest at schoolboy level.
In our early U20 teams we had a lot of guys who perhaps didn't have the size to make it at the top level (TJ Faiane, Tei Walden, Shaun Treeby), but in more recent years we've been selecting a larger midfield (Tele'a, Gregory, T Umaga-Jensen). I guess the question mark for these larger guys is whether they have the skillset needed, and particularly, whether they can perform these skills under pressure. Some of this development can only happen if they're given enough game time - and some of it dependent on the players themselves and how much they're willing to work on it. Too often, I feel, we're relying on stopgap options at 12 who we know will never be good enough, rather than allowing some of more promising options to get better (e.g. Sio Tomkinson ahead of Scott Gregory).
Aside from Havili and Lienert-Brown, the players I see who have the potential to wear the 12 jersey over the next few years (edit - by few years I mean 2 - 6 years) are:
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Quinn Tupaea - the most obvious. He will likely be getting consistent game time, crucially alongside Anton Lienert-Brown. He can break tackles easily. I'd like to see him round out his game a little better - I think he has the skills, so likely just needs to get a little better at performing these under pressure. This takes time.
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Scott Gregory - Played well this year for the Highlanders. He's big and can cart the ball up. Again, he needs work on the playmaking side of things. I'd like to see the Highlanders persist with him. Unless TUJ stops getting injured, he will likely get a lot of game time in the future
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Thomas Umaga-Jensen - Big question mark is whether he can actually get enough games together to put forward his case for selection, let alone get a bit of experience under his belt.
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Peter Umaga-Jensen - It would be good to see more of him at 12, but he looks to have the size and skills. Will likely have the 12 jersey for the Hurricanes going forward (or at least you'd think he would - with the Canes coaches, you never know).
There are a few other players who I think have/could develop the skillset required to be an AB 12, but I don't think they'll get the time in the jersey that they'd need (e.g. Leicester Fainga'anuku, Jordie Barrett (why would we, at this point?).
Tony Brown had huge wraps on Thomas Umaga-Jensen, sees him as a future long-term All Black.
Massive frame, really impressive physical specimen at just 22, & very similar in physique to SBW. Once he fills out he could potentially become the most powerful & destructive line-breaking midfielder in NZ since Nonu, by all accounts he's even better than his brother at the Hurricanes.
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@kiwi_expat I hope those two beat their injury problems. Been hearing about them for years and getting the odd glimpse, but then they get injured.
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@taniwharugby said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@kiwiwomble well next year hopefully the Chiefs run Tupaea/ALB and the 'saders Havili/Goodhue as thier midfields, while we also know ALB/Goodhue works too, although Goodhue has never been the quickest centre and coming back from major knee surgery, speed has never been what made him such a good centre.
With our outside backs I’m not too worried about speed, I just want solid defence and some creativity
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@crazy-horse said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@kiwi_expat I hope those two beat their injury problems. Been hearing about them for years and getting the odd glimpse, but then they get injured.
I'm pretty sure TUG shifted to the Highlanders in 2019, it's crazy he's only been available for a couple of matches.
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@kiwiwomble said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@taniwharugby said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@kiwiwomble well next year hopefully the Chiefs run Tupaea/ALB and the 'saders Havili/Goodhue as thier midfields, while we also know ALB/Goodhue works too, although Goodhue has never been the quickest centre and coming back from major knee surgery, speed has never been what made him such a good centre.
With our outside backs I’m not too worried about speed, I just want solid defence
NZ are really missing Leinert-Brown's form of that 2019 season, he hasn't been the same player since that season unfortunately.
And surprisingly, he looked really anonymous for the All Blacks in 2020 as well, I had excepted him to kick-on after the world cup.
I still think he has a significant role to play going forward to 2023, after all he's our senior & most capped midfielder.
Just hoping it's a temporary glitch in form.
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I saw the build up to the Oz-Argie game, they did a little feature on Samu Kerevi and he was talking about trying to model himself on Ma'a Nonu.
Can't say I watched the Oz games at all closely, but he did seem to cause some problems and a useful combination with Quade - a point of difference to what we had and possibly quite a significant one.
Havili is definitely more of a 2nd five than an inside centre - not really a big bruiser, so not really surprising that he's not getting great change out of being used as a crash ball merchant.
I reckon we missed that last night - Rieko broke a couple of tackles to help set up Ardie's try, but we could definitely have done with more power. Unfortunately, when we went to the bench, we only had little men to bring on.
Incidentally, DMac getting swatted away by Vermuelen (I think) was a text book example of what I've written lots of times about the perils of little man on big.
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@kiwi_expat said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
ALB hsa only just turned 26, he's been very good for some time ... he'll come good I expect
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@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@kiwi_expat said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
ALB hsa only just turned 26, he's been very good for some time ... he'll come good I expect
Added to the it was his first game back from injury. Also added to that some of the game criticism was directed at him not being a wing and scoring in the corner. That’s not his role, that’s not his style, that’s for the Bridges of this world to do. 🤣
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@kiwimurph said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Ennor is another option to try and get some more size in the backline.
Tupaea 12 Rieko 13 and Ennor on the wing could be worth a look (or swap Rieko and Ennor around but Ennor looks better on the wing in my view).
Is Non-Maori Jesus big? Genuinely asking because I barely remember what he looks like. 😏
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@kiwimurph said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Ennor is another option to try and get some more size in the backline.
Tupaea 12 Rieko 13 and Ennor on the wing could be worth a look (or swap Rieko and Ennor around but Ennor looks better on the wing in my view).
Braydon Ennor (92kg) is the lightest midfielder in the squad:
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It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach. -
To be fair on Havili, he was a stopgap measure to start with.I said before the team was selected that i thought he wasn't looking as crisp as he had been to start with and thought they might use QT.
I guess the boks called a little bluff on their strategy though and we thought we were going to run them around so DH was the second distributing option.
Boks did show a good reason why to have different styles of play available and to me that's what we also need in the midfield.
Havili is handy to have in the squad and is a good player but against teams like SA and England the pressure will come on 10 and 12 and we need to be stronger.
RM is also a contributing factor to our midfield requirements. I saw him look just like that semi-final last night. He can't cart it up and a rush defence won't allow the first phase to go much past the 12. -
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
This needs to be balanced with giving Tupaea chances as well - he needs more opportunities.
