Filling McCullums' Boots in ODIs

KiwiPie

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="557646" data-time="1455051250">
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If only the notion of a match winning 50 was around in Fleming's day - he would have been lauded just as much. His top score of 48 chasing 200 against the Aussies in the 2003 CWC now looks like an all time knock.
 
It's a fallacy to say that McCullum was boom or bust as an opener. Things very rarely went "spectacularly" for him. How many match winning innings did he play at the top of the order against genuine opposition? I have one against Pakistan in the UAE a few years ago but that's it. Best case scenario was a 70 or 80 odd and chipping out to a garbage shot - that's why in that semi many called for him to slow the fuck down and tick the score along after hitting 50. Others point out that if it had come off he would have hit a match winning hundred - but we never saw evidence in his career he could bat long periods so recklessly like Sehwag, Warner, De Villiers and frankly Guptill.
 
edit: this isn't a slight at McCullum he still had a valuable and important role and definitely contributed positively to that win. But like the Sri Lankan 1996 top order he was playing a Kaluwitharana role and I felt with the right application he had the ability to do much more (not to mention I don't believe captains should play that role).
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Are you saying that NZ would have chased down SA in that semi-final (298 at almost 7 an over) without BMac's 59 off 26 balls? He used up just over 4 overs to knock it down by 59, that is astonishing hitting. and when he was out the asking rate was just over 6. I'm not saying his innings was the only factor but it enabled Elliott and Anderson to take their time when the pressure was on.

KiwiPie

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="557645" data-time="1455051103">
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The forum hardly has an obsession with averages. It is just the case that a player's average is the best way we have of measuring performance. A player like Guptill who averages 40 with a decent strike rate just has to be selected every time over a player who averages 30, whatever their strike rate. What are people who don't like stats saying? How should we measure performance? Basically, humans have all sorts of biases that come into play if you are just going on visual perception. The fact is that McCullum averaged 31 as a batsman and that is well below what you would call an average average in ODI cricket these days. Most of the time it was good enough to make the New Zealand team. When he was wicket keeper, it was good enough to be our best ever keeper-batsman.
 
The solution to bad stats is better stats, rather than no stats.
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Averages are fine for test cricket, become less important in ODIs and are almost irrelevant in T20s. What is important is measuring whether the player does the job well according to the situation they are faced with. Williamson has a fine ODI average now, it would be even better if he kept pushing singles when he got to the 40th over and finished 120 not out instead of hitting out and getting out for 90. Which statistic do I look at for that factor?

dogmeat

Look at the opposition and the crowds reaction whenever he got out for a good gauge on how "good" he was

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="KiwiPie" data-cid="557659" data-time="1455057539">
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Are you saying that NZ would have chased down SA in that semi-final (298 at almost 7 an over) without BMac's 59 off 26 balls? He used up just over 4 overs to knock it down by 59, that is astonishing hitting. and when he was out the asking rate was just over 6. I'm not saying his innings was the only factor but it enabled Elliott and Anderson to take their time when the pressure was on.
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As I said
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">this isn't a slight at McCullum he still had a valuable and important role and definitely contributed positively to that win.</blockquote>
 
I simply saying that I struggle to find a batting captain in the history of ODI cricket who is praised so regularly for 50s and getting the job half done (not to mention the method of his dismissals). Fleming was derided for similar innings (albeit at a slower pace but more runs in a different era) and I do not remember the likes of Steve Waugh being praised for such innings either. I'm happy to be wrong but I genuinely cannot recall another batting captain who is given that much slack in the ODI game.
 
Specifically for that game and that innings it was certainly a vital contribution, however at the time trying to hit a bowler of Steyn's quality out of the attack was a fools errand. Steyn was going to be persevered with and bowled on his own schedule such was his quality. I think Guppy's innings in the QF showed an alternate template for how McCullum could have structured his innings without getting out ahead of the run rate.

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="557635" data-time="1455040957">
Quite simply, I think you'll be proven wrong there. Perhaps not immediately, but without doubt in the medium term and on. It'll only take a season of Latham bedding in before he's given the gloves.</blockquote>
 
Do you mean he becomes an ODI regular batsman now Baz retires, and after a season he is also given ODI keeping? 
Yes, that's a conceivable scenario. 
But I still don't see it as likely. The ODI keeping gap is now, not 12 months away. 
I just don't see Hesson weakening one relative strength (which has a huge gap to the next best) to tinker with a non-critical weakness in the ODI team which has other options. Plus there are about 6 or 7 better keepers than him on the provincial scene. 
Latham hasn't kept at any level since he became test opener. He's been given a clear role and message. They won't fuck with that.

shark

Still, Latham has kept in ODI, List A and First Class cricket. And not that long ago. He's more than capable so I can see it happening sooner rather than later. It's another BJ Watling situation. Be interesting to see when the selectors lose faith in Ronchi.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="557815" data-time="1455080256">
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Still, Latham has kept in ODI, List A and First Class cricket. And not that long ago. He's more than capable so I can see it happening sooner rather than later. It's another BJ Watling situation. Be interesting to see when the selectors lose faith in Ronchi.
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Somewhat amusingly the commentators have been saying he ( Ronchi ) is "due a big one" everytime he goes out to bat.
 
I don't think that big one will ever happen.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="557662" data-time="1455058198">
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Specifically for that game and that innings it was certainly a vital contribution, however at the time trying to hit a bowler of Steyn's quality out of the attack was a fools errand. Steyn was going to be persevered with and bowled on his own schedule such was his quality. I think Guppy's innings in the QF showed an alternate template for how McCullum could have structured his innings without getting out ahead of the run rate.
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Slight difference in bowling attacks there, your pushing shit up hill tbh.
We won the Semi with a 6 off the last ball, we wouldnt have gotten that close without the innings from McCullum. It wasnt just about the runs either, he went out there and showed we werent going to be intimated by Steyn and co or the occasion of a WC semi final.
Id agree with what ive heard on talk back the past days, that innings from McCullum ranks right up there with his 302.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557824" data-time="1455083222">
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Slight difference in bowling attacks there, your pushing shit up hill tbh.
We won the Semi with a 6 off the last ball, we wouldnt have gotten that close without the innings from McCullum. It wasnt just about the runs either, he went out there and showed we werent going to be intimated by Steyn and co or the occasion of a WC semi final.
Id agree with what ive heard on talk back the past days, that innings from McCullum ranks right up there with his 302.
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Some guys are just better than their stats. I mean Kapil Dev was "Indian cricket" during the time that he played if you believe all the shit written about him yet averaging 29 and 30 for batting and bowling makes him inferior to our very own Cairnsy. McCullum in principle is kinda similar.....

Virgil

Rewind to the mess of 3 years ago when Taylor was dumped as skipper. Would anyone have dared imagine how things have played out since with McCullum leading and Hesson as coach? 
A WC final capping a fucking amazing month of cricket in NZ (out doing the 92 Young Guns in my opinion) 
A ton of amazing record innings and partnerships, almost too many to mention 
Most of which may never had happened if McCullum wasn't in charge.

Donsteppa

I thought John Cleese summed it up nicely.

shark

Ah well, anyway. Anyone got any other opinions on the make-up of the Baz-less Black Caps?

Gunner

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="shark" data-cid="557852" data-time="1455092837">
Ah well, anyway. Anyone got any other opinions on the make-up of the Baz-less Black Caps?</blockquote>You mean you want people to stay on topic? 
Maaayyyyte, you're dreeaaaaming.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557841" data-time="1455087883">
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Rewind to the mess of 3 years ago when Taylor was dumped as skipper. Would anyone have dared imagine how things have played out since with McCullum leading and Hesson as coach? 
A WC final capping a fucking amazing month of cricket in NZ (out doing the 92 Young Guns in my opinion) 
A ton of amazing record innings and partnerships, almost too many to mention Most of which may never had happened if McCullum wasn't in charge.
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that's just speculation, and plenty of people were saying before the change that this was potentially the best group of players we had had in a very long time. the post-mccullum period will be interesting - i'd personally be surprised if the success doesn't continue without baz in charge.
 
also nobody would have predicted success based on the change itself as it was handled god-fucking-awfully, and immediately followed by really embarrassing hidings in SA. it's pretty tough to predict someone (hesson) doing good things on the basis of royally fucking a few things up initially - though by and large i certainly agree he has been good since.

gollum

The beauty of cricket is stats very much DO tell the story
 
If you'd watched a lot of cricket but never seen Baz you'd see our openers come out & think "Ok, so these guys will be looking to bat big at least one of them will bat thru to 30 overs, they'll both try to, they'll try to get the score to 70 odd off 12-15 overs get set etc as thats what EVERYONE does (see SA yesterday for example)"
 
Then you'd look at Baz's stats & go "33 average, 150% strike rate, score a ton virtually never. OK so I'm now expecting him to smash seven shades of shit out of it & then get out WAY before 100"
 
Which is exactly what you'd get.
 
People who say "stats don't tell the story" invariably mean "stats don't tell the story I want to hear"
 
Like Steve Jobs going "so I can get normal treatment & have an 80% chance of living, or shove a grapefruit up my arse and wear a crystal & 100% die. Grapefruit in the arse it is! Stats don't tell the story!"
 
Ahhh but they do Steve. They do.
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="557827" data-time="1455083487">
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Some guys are just better than their stats. I mean Kapil Dev was "Indian cricket" during the time that he played if you believe all the shit written about him yet averaging 29 and 30 for batting and bowling makes him inferior to our very own Cairnsy. McCullum in principle is kinda similar.....
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No its not. Kapil's average on subcontinent tracks was very much in line, statistically, with the best around. No other India quick was sub 30 in India, no one managed 10 wickets other than him, etc. Strike rate, economy etc. In the 80's, in India he had a better average than Imran & Akram. Every stat there is he is a HUGE outlier. Statisically just how good he was is right there. If you actually look.
 
Kapil is similar to McCullum in one way. He was an all time best - compared to other Indians. Globally he was just very very good. Baz was very very good compared to other Kiwis. Globally he was below average. But in both cases their stats show exactly the deal -
 
Kapil v other Indians - a god.
Kapil v Imran, Kallis, Sobers - solid but not in that league
 
Baz v Greatbatch, Ryder, Guppy, Astle - right up there
Baz v Sachin, Waugh, Gilchrest, Dilshan, Ponting, Sewag - fucking miles off

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557824" data-time="1455083222">
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Id agree with what ive heard on talk back the past days, that innings from McCullum ranks right up there with his 302.
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The concept of a 50 being in the ball park of a triple hundred is again what baffles me. I cannot think of another player where with a straight face a 50 would be given such high praise, particularly given the dismissal. The innings still left us needing runs at a decent clip and the winning formula required Grant Elliot to dominate Steyn which is an ambitious game plan on paper.
 
To me it's like lavishing Boult for snagging Finch very early in the final. He did sweet FA after that, but we didn't stand any chance without an early wicket - so it's obviously it's one of his greatest performances.
 
If a quickfire 52 is one of the best innings of his career perhaps the hole we are filling is much smaller than even I think?

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="557884" data-time="1455108029">
<div> If a quickfire 52 is one of the best innings of his career perhaps the hole we are filling is much smaller than even I think?
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Yep, I can't see us missing him that much in ODIs. T20's he's irreplacable & in tests we'll struggle simply because even tho' he wasn't amazing, neither are the replacements. A 40+ average in tests for NZ is rare.
 
But in ODIs, like for like we could open with Munro & I'd back him as-is, without even improving, to give us what Baz has. 30 off 20 balls then out. On average.
 
I wouldn't want us to go that route, I'd rather our top 4 be guys who have a chance of scoring 100 off 110. So Latham. You want to win modern ODIs consistently you need probably 2 guys going big now, and we can't bank on 2 of Ross, Kane & Guppy doing it every fricking time.
 
But in terms of directly replacing Baz (which was the original topic). Yeah, just a slogger who never threatens a ton. Job done. Added bonus that Munro can bowl a bit too.
 
I'm surprised no-one at Stuff has written a "is now the time to bring Jesse back into the fold?" article.

Virgil

Wasn't just any ordinary QuickFile 50 though was it? 
It was in the Cricket World Cup semi final, at home against one of the best ODI bowling attacks and we were facing pretty slim odds. It propelled us into the WC Final. 
Ask anyone who went to that game if they thought it was just a run of the mill ODI 50...

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="557877" data-time="1455098561">
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The beauty of cricket is stats very much DO tell the story
 
If you'd watched a lot of cricket but never seen Baz you'd see our openers come out & think "Ok, so these guys will be looking to bat big at least one of them will bat thru to 30 overs, they'll both try to, they'll try to get the score to 70 odd off 12-15 overs get set etc as thats what EVERYONE does (see SA yesterday for example)"
 
Then you'd look at Baz's stats & go "33 average, 150% strike rate, score a ton virtually never. OK so I'm now expecting him to smash seven shades of shit out of it & then get out WAY before 100"
 
Which is exactly what you'd get.
 
People who say "stats don't tell the story" invariably mean "stats don't tell the story I want to hear"
 
Like Steve Jobs going "so I can get normal treatment & have an 80% chance of living, or shove a grapefruit up my arse and wear a crystal & 100% die. Grapefruit in the arse it is! Stats don't tell the story!"
 
Ahhh but they do Steve. They do.
 
 
 
No its not. Kapil's average on subcontinent tracks was very much in line, statistically, with the best around. No other India quick was sub 30 in India, no one managed 10 wickets other than him, etc. Strike rate, economy etc. In the 80's, in India he had a better average than Imran & Akram. Every stat there is he is a HUGE outlier. Statisically just how good he was is right there. If you actually look.
 
Kapil is similar to McCullum in one way. He was an all time best - compared to other Indians. Globally he was just very very good. Baz was very very good compared to other Kiwis. Globally he was below average. But in both cases their stats show exactly the deal -
 
Kapil v other Indians - a god.
Kapil v Imran, Kallis, Sobers - solid but not in that league
 
Baz v Greatbatch, Ryder, Guppy, Astle - right up there
Baz v Sachin, Waugh, Gilchrest, Dilshan, Ponting, Sewag - fucking miles off
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No other Indian quick was sub 30 because they weren't very good. I can't imagine Pakistan conditions to be a hell of a lot different to India but they've produced some of the all time best.

dogmeat

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="557895" data-time="1455126019">
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Wasn't just any ordinary QuickFile 50 though was it? 
It was in the Cricket World Cup semi final, at home against one of the best ODI bowling attacks and we were facing pretty slim odds. It propelled us into the WC Final. 
Ask anyone who went to that game if they thought it was just a run of the mill ODI 50...
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 I was at that game and I rate it as an occasion as one of 2-3 best sporting events I've ever attended.
 
However if I were to be (grudgingly) honest: the rain break had more to do with our victory than McCullum's innings or Elliot's or even me blowing the ball off trajectory so that the hairy javelin was dropped on the boundary

The Silver Fern

Filling McCullums&#39; Boots in ODIs

Filling McCullums' Boots in ODIs