Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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A question inspired by that article.
Doesn't anyone know what went on with PUJ? Was on the journey, played well enough to stick with at AB level then the Canes seemingly stuffed his progression. There was no big injury or scandal he just took ages to work his way back into being a key member of the side and that was the excuse to drop him for the ABs, opportunity lost.
Bad run of circumstances? Personal issues kept quiet? Niggling injuries?
Just seems weird looking back especially when the selectors then picked a bolter to take his AB squad spot.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that?Not unless whitebait play in or coach the All Blacks.
That is one of the weakest arguments by analogy I've read on the Fern, well done!
But Henry WAS at the panel AND did ask tough questions according to this article and Scott Robertson. IMO he was conflicted and should not have been there.
While Robertson told Greenwood, a former England and British and Irish Lions player, he didn't want to go into detail about the questions that put him on the back foot he offered a glimpse of how tough an adversary Henry could be in such a situation. "But it was probably around my decision making and he (Henry) challenged me on it," Robertson said on the podcast. "And what my thoughts (were) around why I was doing a couple of things and is that right … It was quite a challenging moment.Why should an experienced AB coach not be on panel of selecting another coach? And of course he should ask tough question on decision making, I would hope it asked of any coaching candidate. Hell man it's what happens in decent interview! They have to try and find weaknesses etc, and find what their plans are if they get the job. Hell you wouldn't want to of applied for coaching jobs even at u16 rep level in provincial level of the boards I was involved in if you didn't want to get challenged!
It was usual for candidates to get asked what they would do if and when things went wrong, and answers were how we rated coaches!
Unfortunately regardless of what we read on the net, it's not a popularity contest, but a decision on who the panel thinks will make the best job! -
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that?Not unless whitebait play in or coach the All Blacks.
That is one of the weakest arguments by analogy I've read on the Fern, well done!
But Henry WAS at the panel AND did ask tough questions according to this article and Scott Robertson. IMO he was conflicted and should not have been there.
While Robertson told Greenwood, a former England and British and Irish Lions player, he didn't want to go into detail about the questions that put him on the back foot he offered a glimpse of how tough an adversary Henry could be in such a situation. "But it was probably around my decision making and he (Henry) challenged me on it," Robertson said on the podcast. "And what my thoughts (were) around why I was doing a couple of things and is that right … It was quite a challenging moment.Why should an experienced AB coach not be on panel of selecting another coach? And of course he should ask tough question on decision making, I would hope it asked of any coaching candidate. Hell man it's what happens in decent interview! They have to try and find weaknesses etc, and find what their plans are if they get the job. Hell you wouldn't want to of applied for coaching jobs even at u16 rep level in provincial level of the boards I was involved in if you didn't want to get challenged!
It was usual for candidates to get asked what they would do if and when things went wrong, and answers were how we rated coaches!
Unfortunately regardless of what we read on the net, it's not a popularity contest, but a decision on who the panel thinks will make the best job!Yep, complaining about it publically comes across a little entitled really.
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@crucial it's all very odd but I think it's just a case of Holland having his favourites and wanting Proctor on the park instead. Laumape had the 12 jersey locked down so it made it hard for Peter to break into the starting 15 knowing that Proctor had more of a backing, even though he was blatantly playing better rugby than Proctor and did an outstanding job in 2020.
Hopefully PUJ can take that 12 jersey with both hands next year and make a statement because he's shown he has the talent, he's arguably the most threatening midfielder in NZ on attack but defensively he probably needs to sharpen up a little.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that?Not unless whitebait play in or coach the All Blacks.
That is one of the weakest arguments by analogy I've read on the Fern, well done!
But Henry WAS at the panel AND did ask tough questions according to this article and Scott Robertson. IMO he was conflicted and should not have been there.
While Robertson told Greenwood, a former England and British and Irish Lions player, he didn't want to go into detail about the questions that put him on the back foot he offered a glimpse of how tough an adversary Henry could be in such a situation. "But it was probably around my decision making and he (Henry) challenged me on it," Robertson said on the podcast. "And what my thoughts (were) around why I was doing a couple of things and is that right … It was quite a challenging moment.Why should an experienced AB coach not be on panel of selecting another coach?
-I explained why.
And of course he should ask tough question on decision making, I would hope it asked of any coaching candidate.
-I said that last sentence.
Hell man it's what happens in decent interview!
-As above.They have to try and find weaknesses etc, and find what their plans are if they get the job. Hell you wouldn't want to of applied for coaching jobs even at u16 rep level in provincial level of the boards I was involved in if you didn't want to get challenged!
-Robertson said he did appreciate a challenge. In the article I linked to.It was usual for candidates to get asked what they would do if and when things went wrong, and answers were how we rated coaches!
-I'm not disputing that.Unfortunately regardless of what we read on the net, it's not a popularity contest, but a decision on who the panel thinks will make the best job!
-Then people who have friends applying should excuse themselves from selecting.but a decision on who the panel thinks will make the best job!
-and the best person was Foster? -
@ploughboy said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
As an aside, the missus of a Welsh friend is a headteacher who went to a non-rugby talk by Henry on the importance of sport and non-sport extra-curricular activities in schools. She said he was way ahead of the curve in his thinking on the subject and probably the best educationalist she has ever heard.
He may have learnt that at Auckland Grammar from head John Graham who said extra curricular made the boys much better at planning their time etc.
If he asked just as tough comments of Foster all good.
who would know if he wasnt asked just as hard questions foster hasnt run to media tell .
-my point was he had an apparent conflict of interest. If he did ask similar hard questions of Foster (like, why his coaching record was weaker than the other candidates) then it shows he could rise above an apparent conflict of interest. But yes we will probably never know.
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@nostrildamus
the most popular coach didnt get the job
still carnt see the conflict of interest. -
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus
the most popular coach didnt get the job
still carnt see the conflict of interest.His mate's mate? That he defends publicly? Ok. Feel free to agree to disagree.
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I'm genuinely struggling to see your point here (though to be fair I cant access the article due to geo-blocking).
An experienced bloke, Graham Henry, comes to an opinion on Foster having interviewed the other applicants and sticks to that opinion. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Unless you don't want experienced people inputting into selection on the basis their successor has worked with a candidate, what do you think is the issue?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus
the most popular coach didnt get the job
still carnt see the conflict of interest.His mate's mate? That he defends publicly? Ok. Feel free to agree to disagree.
read three time and cannot see what your saying.maybe it might help if you highlight the bits that concern you.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
I'm genuinely struggling to see your point here (though to be fair I cant access the article due to geo-blocking).
An experienced bloke, Graham Henry, comes to an opinion on Foster having interviewed the other applicants and sticks to that opinion. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Unless you don't want experienced people inputting into selection on the basis their successor has worked with a candidate, what do you think is the issue?
That wasn't for you, I'm being a bit besieged by a few posters and I'm not going back to find the specific post but someone complained that Robertson was complaining and mentioning the interview. That link was just to question (and I should have commented as such) that Sir Graham felt free to comment on the selection, so I wonder why Robertson can't answer a direct question on it without being seen as a whiner.
But it is two or three days now where I seem to be defending a Crusaders coach against Chiefs and Blues coaches. And I'd really rather just get on with life and take back any brazen suggestion that it wasn't such a great idea given the Henry-Hansen-Foster love triangle (and that was said tongue in cheek but no doubt it will trigger someone).I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/119529151/all-blacks-coach-ian-foster-my-chiefs-experience-doesnt-define-who-i-am-nowLet's review that stint first. In his eight seasons Foster took the Hamilton-based franchise to the finals twice, in 2004 (where they lost in the semifinals to the Brumbies) and 2009 (a defeat in the final to the Bulls). They also finished 6th in '05, 7th in '06, 6th in '07, 7th in '08, 11th in 2010 and 10th in '11... The reality was Foster's Chiefs tenure wasn't as bad as some portray. He had winning records in five of his eight seasons and four of his first six campaigns saw the team finish in the top six, while they were seventh in the other two. It's not lost on him that those positions would all net finals spots – and pass marks – under the current Super Rugby thresholds... But his last two seasons were poor – a combined record of 10-2-17 – and his efforts were further shaded by the fact that when Dave Rennie took charge he won Super Rugby titles in his first two seasons, 2012 and '13.So where was Foster's international experience? As AB assistant coach? Co-coaching the junior ABs? (and not sure how many he won/lost for the latter).
Scott Robertson won 5 titles for Crusaders, titles for Canterbury (two I think?) and once as head coach of the New Zealand Under-20 Rugby team-2015 World Rugby Under 20 Championship (but not even playoffs in 2016).
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@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus
the most popular coach didnt get the job
still carnt see the conflict of interest.His mate's mate? That he defends publicly? Ok. Feel free to agree to disagree.
read three time and cannot see what your saying.maybe it might help if you highlight the bits that concern you.
That link was just to question (and I should have commented as such) that Sir Graham felt free to comment on the selection, so I wonder why Robertson can't answer a direct question on it without being seen as a whiner.
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This post is deleted!
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Robertson has a proven ability for taking struggling sides & transforming them completely, NZ should be his next assignment.
He inherited a dead last Sumner side & turned them into premier champions within 2 years, he transformed a previously 7th placed Crusaders outfit (2015, 2016), and a NZ-U20 side that hadn't won the World Championship in 5 years.
Crusaders without Scott Robertson - (2015/2016) 7th, 7th.
Crusaders with Scott Robertson - (2017/2018/2019/2020/2021) 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st.
I'd argue that his successes in 2020 & 2021 mattered slightly more because I think on paper the Blues were a slightly more talented team, man for man.
Granted his Crusaders are still strong but the fact that he's remained so dominant without a sophomore slump indicates that he's constantly evolving and innovating.
His record with the Crusaders is 71-4-9, which is crazy.
Todd Blackadder at 74-2-40, and Deans at 88-1-30.
It would great to see Razor involved in the All Black's coaching set-up in some capacity between now & the next World Cup. Perhaps in a defensive/breakdown focused advisory role that would aptly suit his technical strengths. He could be lurking in the background, out of the limelight for a decent period (like Wayne Smith) & equipped to take the main job after 2023.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Robertson has a proven ability for taking previously struggling sides & transforming them completely, NZ should be his next assignment.
He inherited a dead last Sumner side & turned them into premier champions within 2 years, he transformed a previously 7th placed Crusaders outfit (2015, 2016), and a NZ-U20 side that hadn't won the World Championship in 5 years.
Crusaders without Scott Robertson - (2015/2016) 7th, 7th.
Crusaders with Scott Robertson - (2017/2018/2019/2020/2021) 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st.
I'd argue that his successes in 2020 & 2021 mattered slightly more because I think on paper the Blues were a slightly more talented team, man for man.
Granted his Crusaders are still strong but the fact that he's remained so dominant without a sophomore slump indicates that he's constantly evolving and innovating.
His record with the Crusaders is 71-4-9, which is crazy.
Todd Blackadder at 74-2-40, and Deans at 88-1-30.
It would great to see Razor involved in the All Black's coaching set-up in some capacity between now & the next World Cup. Perhaps in a defensive/breakdown focused advisory role that would aptly suit his technical strengths. He could be lurking in the background, out of the limelight for a decent period (like Wayne Smith) & equipped to take the main job after 2023.
Would you say Blackadder also had a stronger team? I understand it is complicated by ABs being rested, the earthquake etc..
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Blackadder had a stronger squad for his entire 9 year tenure, especially in the forwards.
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The (2009-2014) Crusader's squads could be considered the most stacked Super Rugby sides ever. Their playing roster during that period would've dismantled many international teams.
A few names that spring to mind:
Thorn, Carter, McCaw, Jack, Flynn, N.Manu, P.Osborne, T.Waldrom, Ellis, Fruean, Guilford, J.Payne, Maitland, Fotuali'i, SBW, Crotty, Laulala, S.Christie, 4x Whitelock brothers, Bird, Slade, Heinz, Nadolo, Taufua, (peak) Romano/Dagg/Crockett/Moody/2x Franks brothers/Crotty/Read/Whitelock/Todd, etc.. (as Razor inherited all of these guys in their 30's & well past their best-by-dates).
Imagine having a squad of that magnitude for season upon season & and only managing a modest 63% win-record.
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Ah OK. You were more concerned with the selection process and the outcome rather than GH being involved and commenting on Foster's record to date.
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@nostrildamus Yep mate regardless of what you and I think, the decision was between Foster and Razor the only 2 that applied, and without knowing what was asked, and actually been part of their teams and coached by them etc, how the hell would we know who is best?
Usually senior team members of the team are screened for their opinion to, and I guessing they may have a slightly more idea of coaching abilities of coaches than us.
As I said I always liked idea of someone else (JJ and TB), but am just smart enough to know I probably don't know more than the ones doing the selecting of coaches etc.
And while Foster is coaching the ABs he is part of the team I support so I will support him too! -
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
As an aside, the missus of a Welsh friend is a headteacher who went to a non-rugby talk by Henry on the importance of sport and non-sport extra-curricular activities in schools. She said he was way ahead of the curve in his thinking on the subject and probably the best educationalist she has ever heard.
He may have learnt that at Auckland Grammar from head John Graham who said extra curricular made the boys much better at planning their time etc.
If he asked just as tough comments of Foster all good.
who would know if he wasnt asked just as hard questions foster hasnt run to media tell .
To be fair to Razor, I don't think he really ran to media, more was maybe just asked why he thought he missed out by Will Greenwood, and Foster obviously wouldn't get same question as he got job.
