2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555175" data-time="1454115884">
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What if I can't be arsed? 
 
Anyway, I just posted a link about the Stormers' average attendances, because I took the trouble to google those particular stats so the link was easy to find.
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Then don't make the claim in the first place. Thats pretty simple isn't it? If you say the 2011 rwc was widely regarded as the worst ever but when asked to back it up all you can talk about is Paul Ackfords jetlag you look like a troll, noone treats a troll with respect. They don't deserve any.

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555175" data-time="1454115884">What if I can't be arsed? 
Anyway, I just posted a link about the Stormers' average attendances, because I took the trouble to google those particular stats so the link was easy to find.</blockquote>
Then your claim is void and will be disregarded by everyone.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="555176" data-time="1454116015">
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You mean a forum is the place to simply make shit up and ignore that you've been corrected? Where factual accuracy means nothing? I'm sure you take the same approach when people take a guess at your IQ or general competence at daily tasks normal people execute without difficulty? 

 
Unfortunately your source states the lowest home crowd figure for the Stormers was 35,412 which would be difficult when SARU themselves list the fixture against the Rebels as having an attendance of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sarugby.net/component/match_centre/?view=match&id=136644&leagueid=2174&homeid=23224&awayid=23344'>23,137</a>
 
Care to address this marked mathematical discrepancy?
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Oh dear.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="555176" data-time="1454116015">
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You mean a forum is the place to simply make shit up and ignore that you've been corrected? Where factual accuracy means nothing? I'm sure you take the same approach when people take a guess at your IQ or general competence at daily tasks normal people execute without difficulty? 

 
Unfortunately your source states the lowest home crowd figure for the Stormers was 35,412 which would be difficult when SARU themselves list the fixture against the Rebels as having an attendance of <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sarugby.net/component/match_centre/?view=match&id=136644&leagueid=2174&homeid=23224&awayid=23344'>23,137</a>
 
Care to address this marked mathematical discrepancy?
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It's not my web-site, dude. Why don't you write a letter to them expressing your grievances. I'm just trying to obliged everybody by posting the links that are apparently required to back up every single comment I make on this forum - even though nobody else seems to be doing this. I've actually come up with quite a lot of data to support my comments, unlike most of the self-appointed senior detectives around here.

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555175" data-time="1454115884">
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What if I can't be arsed? 
 
 
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That's all you had to say... :)

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555182" data-time="1454116236">
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It's not my web-site, dude. Why don't you write a letter to them expressing your grievances. I'm just trying to obliged everybody by posting the links that are apparently required to back up every single comment I make on this forum - even though nobody else seems to be doing this. I've actually come up with quite a lot of data to support my comments, unlike most of the self-appointed senior detectives around here.
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So it's everyone else's' fault you're lazy or inept?

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555182" data-time="1454116236">
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It's not my web-site, dude. Why don't you write a letter to them expressing your grievances. I'm just trying to obliged everybody by posting the links that are apparently required to back up every single comment I make on this forum - even though nobody else seems to be doing this. I've actually come up with quite a lot of data to support my comments, unlike most of the self-appointed senior detectives around here.
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I have provided sources on factual things I have asserted.
 
You have asserted that Ireland would be too small to accommodate a 20 team tournament. Where would they all fit - on top of each other.
 
When verifiable data was provided to you showing the contrary, you ignored that and persisted with your claim. 
 
You can say what you want about the weather in Ireland. And I'll happily correct you with my personal experience. No one is debating it's the same, of course it's different to South Africa. As to whether the weather is better is a personal opinion. Rugby is played in different temperatures around the world. 
 
By the way, what country are you from? What's your own personal experience of rugby - playing it or following it?

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555166" data-time="1454115112">
I can't believe we're even comparing South Africa and Ireland's weather conditions.</blockquote>
 
Well you started it

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555175" data-time="1454115884">
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What if I can't be arsed? 
 
 
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Then piss off and peddle your brand of BS somewhere else! 
 
Debate and discuss, but if you talk shit, expect to be called on it, and asked to back it up.

Wurzel

Can't be long before a mod pulls the pin on Rowan.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="555197" data-time="1454117198">Can't be long before a mod pulls the pin on Rowan.</blockquote>
 
I think he's used to rejection .

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555185" data-time="1454116341">
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That's all you had to say... :)
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Thanks. Some things I do google, but I'm an avid reader of both online and printed material, so of course I can't provide references for every comment I make. That's an absurd ploy to derail the discussion.
 
Anyway, I did provide a link (unsatisfactory to some though it may have been) supporting my comment about South African crowds at Super Rugby games being the biggest in domestic competition anywhere in the world - including Ireland. That surely reflects the amount of interest there is in the game there - ie passion.
 
"By the way, what country are you from? What's your own personal experience of rugby - playing it or following it?"
 
Grew up in NZ and played my rugby there. Also played a season of league in Aussie. I later got into sports journalism. But I've been abroad for around 20 years now, currently in Turkey, as someone already pointed out.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555199" data-time="1454117309">Thanks. Some things I do google, but I'm an avid reader of both online and printed material, so of course I can't provide references for every comment I make. That's an absurd ploy to derail the discussion. 
 
Anyway, I did provide a link (unsatisfactory to some though it may have been) supporting my comment about South African crowds at Super Rugby games being the biggest in domestic competition anywhere in the world - including Ireland. That surely reflects the amount of interest there is in the game there - ie passion. 
 
"By the way, what country are you from? What's your own personal experience of rugby - playing it or following it?" 
 Grew up in NZ and played my rugby there. Also played a season of league in Aussie. I later got into sports journalism. But I've been abroad for around 20 years now, currently in Turkey, as someone already pointed out.</blockquote>
 
You say you're a journalist of some sort but dont understand how you can get into trouble asserting something as a fact without proof? What kind of newspaper accepts an article without verifiable sources?

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555199" data-time="1454117309">
<div>
Thanks. Some things I do google, but I'm an avid reader of both online and printed material, so of course I can't provide references for every comment I make. That's an absurd ploy to derail the discussion.
 
Anyway, I did provide a link (unsatisfactory to some though it may have been) supporting my comment about South African crowds at Super Rugby games being the biggest in domestic competition anywhere in the world - including Ireland. That surely reflects the amount of interest there is in the game there - ie passion.
 
"By the way, what country are you from? What's your own personal experience of rugby - playing it or following it?"
 
Grew up in NZ and played my rugby there. Also played a season of league in Aussie. I later got into sports journalism. But I've been abroad for around 20 years now, currently in Turkey, as someone already pointed out.
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I don't doubt that South Africa have some of the best attendances in club rugby - in south Africa.
 
However, you stated this in the context of SA fans being more passionate than Irish ones as if somehow this made a difference. So what if they are? 
 
83,000 fans turned out to watch a club game between Leinster and Munster out of a population of 2.5m approx. 40,000 Stormers fans turned out to watch a game out of a population of how many millions?
 
Are you arguing that you measure passion as a proportion of population? Or how many times over that you could fill 12 stadiums with a finite capacity? Or what?

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="555201" data-time="1454117817">
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You say you're a journalist of some sort but dont understand how you can get into trouble asserting something as a fact without proof? What kind of newspaper accepts an article without verifiable sources?
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Do you personally keep a record of such things? Most mortal human beings just accumulate knowledge through reading - then share it with others in amiable discussion.
 
Also, I haven't been a journalist for almost 20 years, although I do still contribute articles to various newspapers from time to time.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555203" data-time="1454118004">Do you personally keep a record of such things? Most mortal human beings just accumulate knowledge through reading - then share it with others in amiable discussion.</blockquote>
 
Aimiable discussion doesn't include making comments like your ones about the 2011 rwc with no proof, you were trolling with that and got shown up as a liar when you were called on it. If it was such a widely held opinion you'd have sources to back it up instead you got all pouty again and told me to prove you wrong. 
Not exactly the behaviour of someone looking for an amiable discussion is it?

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555202" data-time="1454118003">
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I don't doubt that South Africa have some of the best attendances in club rugby - in south Africa.
 
However, you stated this in the context of SA fans being more passionate than Irish ones as if somehow this made a difference. So what if they are? 
 
83,000 fans turned out to watch a club game between Leinster and Munster out of a population of 2.5m approx. 40,000 Stormers fans turned out to watch a game out of a population of how many millions?
 
Are you arguing that you measure passion as a proportion of population? Or how many times over that you could fill 12 stadiums with a finite capacity? Or what?
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</blockquote>
 
Well, I'm not sure how else we can measure passion other than by attendances. Other than that, I can only go by what I see on TV, and I'm not sure I've ever seen more passionate support for a RWC than 1995.

jegga

Oh dear.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555206" data-time="1454118403">
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Well, I'm not sure how else we can measure passion other than by attendances. Other than that, I can only go by what I see on TV, and I'm not sure I've ever seen more passionate support for a RWC than 1995.
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Were you there?

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555206" data-time="1454118403">
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Well, I'm not sure how else we can measure passion other than by attendances. Other than that, I can only go by what I see on TV, and I'm not sure I've ever seen more passionate support for a RWC than 1995.
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Fair enough. But since there hasn't been an RWC hosted in Italy or Ireland on their own, it's difficult to compare.
 
But let's look at South Africa's record of passion/attendance at RWC matches, where they are only one of 20 teams participating. And RWC 1995 is the only yardstick for that.
 
Oddly, despite the passion you observed on TV, according to data provided on the RWC Wikipedia page, the 1995 tournament was the second least successful in filling stadia - 77% of available capacity. In a minor contrast, the ones that Ireland were involved with "hosting" marginally were 79% and 83%. The most recent one in England achieved a staggering 95% of capacity, apparently.
 
In addition, re your earlier criticism about low attendances at 2 matches (3,000 & 9,500) held in Ireland in two different world cups, it's notable that in RWC 1995,
Can v Rom (8,000),
Aus v Can (16,000),
Aus v Rom (15,000),
Italy v Western Sam (7,800),
W Sam v Arg (7,900),
Arg v Italy (7,500),
Japan v Wal (15,000),
Irl v Jap (15,000),
Far v Ivory Coast (10,000) 
 
were a feature of the pool stages with some of the stadia used (e.g. Boet Erasmus) only filled to 25% capacit. Remarkably, a quarter-final between France and Ireland only had 20,000 attending in a 52,00 seater. Even more remarkably, some of south Africa's own games did not get full houses either e.g. SA v France. 
 
SA however, has not just had problems of under-filled stadia at sports matches, of more concern is where overcrowding has been allowed to happen. Whilst your earlier example of waterlogged pitches in Northern Ireland stopping local teams playing a football match at a local ground may be an indicator that it rains in Ireland sometimes, and therefore the country's weather is unreliable for hosting a RWC, you also need to consider the 2001 stampede at a match at Ellis Park that killed 43 people due to overcrowding as a result of security guards being bribed and allowing ticketless people into the ground. It tragically mirrored a similar overcrowding disaster in 1991 at a nearby stadium in which 41 people were crushed to death. 
 
Re RWC1995 and its undeniable component of passion, though not necessarily matched in attendances, you have to acknowledge the context and history behind that tournament - re apartheid and Mandela's ascendancy. Given your background in sports writing, what's your view on whether the same circumstances would apply in 2023, or would the increasingly strident SA government manage to alienate the largely white fanbase with their transition programmes?

The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa