2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="555133" data-time="1454106029">
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Yeah. Pretty sure the RWC window is now pretty much permanently Sept-Oct. 
What's the chance of rain in SA at that time of year? 
Rowan, re the 2% in June I assume you are talking in the veldt? And ruling out playing any matches in Cape Town. Recall some abominable weather there for winter test matches.
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So you're now trying to argue Ireland's case versus South Africa in terms of weather.
 
"You seem to be moving the goalposts a touch. Is your concern that Ireland will not have enough local interest for a RWC and on-field performance is evidence in past World Cups is evidence of this?"
 
No. How on earth did you construe that?
 
"As a proportion of national population I am almost certain Ireland will give more of a shit about a RWC than RSA."
 
About the same, I'd say, except that South Africa's rugby communitiy (roughly four times as big as Irelands') is likely a great deal more passionate. Also, by your method of evaluation, the US would never host it, and Japan shouldn't have got it either, and even France ought to be a fair way down the pecking order. Meanwhile, it seems that, with its minute geographical proportions and immense 'giving a shit about a RWC,' Samoa would meet all your criteria.

jegga

" you've lost it son" 
RIP Bulldog

mariner4life

More passionate? Than the Irish? Now i know you're on the troll

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Wurzel" data-cid="555135" data-time="1454108707">
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The reason so many of the games at the business end of the 2011 RWC were played in Auckland was because of...
 
<img src="http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1298891438/116/4715116.jpg" alt="4715116.jpg">
 
... please jog on Rowan. You've made an absolute fool of yourself on two forums this week. And the more you post the more you embarrass yourself.
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Yes, very sad. I had family in the region and they felt it. They've since moved back to the North Island. But the reason why the business end of the tournament had to be staged mostly in one city bears no relevance to how the revised format was received by fans abroad. The question that was put to me related to the popularity of the 2011 World Cup from the outsiders' perspective.
 
"So your "widely held opinion" boils down to Paul Ackford getting jetlag? You have no evidence other than the tenuous things I've quoted above to back up your rather bold claim? No links to articles from people saying it was the worst ever? "
 
I read a great deal, and not only on the net. It would be impossible to keep track of it all. n any case, I'm merely expressing my views and observations here. I didn't realize that it was obligatory to back up every comment with links to articles, statistics and quotes, etc. I mean, no one else seems to be doing much of that.

Derm McCrum

If Ireland hosted the RWC in the same timeframe as France in 2007, then it could begin on 7 September in theory and finish on 20 Oct approx.
 
The venues would be based around the island of Ireland. Mean temperatures vary from coast to coast - but it is perfectly temperate weather and very suitable for rugby.
 
There's plenty of places to stay - 700,000 stayed in October 2015.
 
Easy international access through a number of airports. Modern roadway network with train and bus between cities and towns. 
 
Nationwide community sporting network through GAA that can easily put in place a hosting town programme for every team. 
 
World Rugby could decide to award it to a nation that hasn't hosted it before. Having 2-3 pool games doesn't really count as hosting. Equally, they might view Italy's bid in that light.
 
We'll just have to wait and see.

jegga

Let's all accept you were lying about it being widely held to be the worst rwc and move on shall we? If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="555143" data-time="1454110431">
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More passionate? Than the Irish? Now i know you're on the troll
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I think that's a fair comment. South Africa dominated world rugby through most of the amateur era and remains a super power in the sport. Success breeds fanatacism and passion. I'm sure the Irish fans are passionate about their rugby too, but not to the same extent. Probably most of the fans who'd go to a World Cup game or any other major international match would never be seen on the sidelines of a club rugby game - nor even have a favorite club to support.

Rowan

" If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find."
 
So why don't you disprove it for us? Should be easy enough to find the evidence to back up your claims to the contrary. In fact, you've failed to back up pretty much all your comments on this thread with the links to articles, statistics and quotes, etc, you apparently find so vital.

hydro11

Italy can't really host a World Cup because of the Serie A. All their big stadiums are used for football at that time. The RWC would have to start earlier to accommodate Italy.

pukunui

This is like watching a politician being interviewed. Making bold statements based on dubious data and clearly influenced by an agenda, totally ignoring any well constructed counter points or interrogation of their claims then deflecting and shifting the goal posts and repeating the dubious basis of their point. 
Well Rowan, I wouldn't vote for you and I would have tuned out pages ago if there was actually some rugby to watch or talk about.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555149" data-time="1454111320">" If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find." 
 So why don't you disprove it for us? Should be easy enough to find the evidence to back up your claims to the contrary. In fact, you've failed to back up pretty much all your comments on this thread with the links to articles, statistics and quotes, etc, you apparently find so vital.</blockquote>
 
Is that a joke? You claimed it was widely held to be the worst rwc but couldn't find a single thing to back it up now you're telling me I have to prove that you're wrong?

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555148" data-time="1454111200">I think that's a fair comment. South Africa dominated world rugby through most of the amateur era and remains a super power in the sport. Success breeds fanatacism and passion. I'm sure the Irish fans are passionate about their rugby too, but not to the same extent. Probably most of the fans who'd go to a World Cup game or any other major international match would never be seen on the sidelines of a club rugby game - nor even have a favorite club to support.</blockquote>
 
More evidence that you know nothing of the Irish rugby scene.

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555148" data-time="1454111200">
I think that's a fair comment. South Africa dominated world rugby through most of the amateur era and remains a super power in the sport. Success breeds fanatacism and passion. I'm sure the Irish fans are passionate about their rugby too, but not to the same extent. Probably most of the fans who'd go to a World Cup game or any other major international match would never be seen on the sidelines of a club rugby game - nor even have a favorite club to support.</blockquote>
 
I'm curious as to how one could measure passion in the first place. Nonetheless, I suppose some indicators are levels of support, number of travelling fans, etc. 
The big 'clubs' in Ireland are the four provinces. I presume you haven't been on the sidelines of a Leinster v Munster rugby match in Croke Park for example? 
Or that Munster would be recognised as having one of the best travelling fan support in European rugby? 
I reckon there's sufficient passion and fanaticism around in Irish sport, including rugby. To be frank, knowing Ireland as I do, if Ireland were to be awarded an RWC, the whole country would likely go mad like Italia '90.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555145" data-time="1454111090">
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If Ireland hosted the RWC in the same timeframe as France in 2007, then it could begin on 7 September in theory and finish on 20 Oct approx.
 
The venues would be based around the island of Ireland. Mean temperatures vary from coast to coast - but it is perfectly temperate weather and very suitable for rugby.
 
There's plenty of places to stay - 700,00 stayed in October 2015.
 
Easy international access through a number of airports. Modern roadway network with train and bus between cities and towns. 
 
Nationwide community sporting network through GAA that can easily put in place a hosting town programme for every team. 
 
We'll jus
t
 have to wait
 
World Rugby could decide to award it to a nation that hasn't hosted it before. Having 2-3 pool games doesn't really count as hosting. Equally, they might view Italy's bid in that light.
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Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.
 
They weather would be pretty chilly and wet - unless they held it in the middle of summer.
 
South Africa receives direct flights from most major European cities.
 
Its infrastructure is the equal of Ireland's - only on a much bigger scale.
 
But, yes, we'll have to wait and see. All things being equal, it ought to come down to a choice between globalization through continental rotation or returning the tournament to its motherland (the Home Unions) for the fifth time from 10 events. I say 'ought to' because more likely it'll come down to the wheeling and dealing of the central committee members behind-the-scenes.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Pot Hale" data-cid="555155" data-time="1454112334">
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I'm curious as to how one could measure passion in the first place. Nonetheless, I suppose some indicators are levels of support, number of travelling fans, etc. 
The big 'clubs' in Ireland are the four provinces. I presume you haven't been on the sidelines of a Leinster v Munster rugby match in Croke Park for example? 
Or that Munster would be recognised as having one of the best travelling fan support in European rugby? 
I reckon there's sufficient passion and fanaticism around in Irish sport, including rugby. To be frank, knowing Ireland as I do, if Ireland were to be awarded an RWC, the whole country would likely go mad like Italia '90.
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Though attendances at provincial and Super Rugby games in South Africa are much bigger. In fact, South Africa has the best attendances of all the SANZAR nations, and probably the best in the world. As mentioned already, their rugby community is also about four times the size of Ireland's.
 
As far as Super Rugby stats go, last year the Stormers averaged 40,000 per home game, the Bulls averaged 27,000, the Lions 25,000, the Sharks 20,000 and the Cheetahs 18,000. This is, generally speaking, well ahead of NZ & Aussie crowds. It's is also well ahead of the approximately 12,000 average at Aviva Premiership matches. However, Leinster is the best supported team iwith an average home attendance of 20,000. Munster 14,000 and Ulster 10,000 follow. Connacht only average about 5000 at home games.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555156" data-time="1454112414">
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Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.
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Ellis Park was half empty for the All Blacks second test in South Africa since readmission during the 1995 World Cup. So scratch that off the list.
 
Ireland sold out Thommond Park against Munster B on Tuesday after playing a packed Croke Park on the Saturday in 2008.
 
Seems to be a fair difference in appetite for rugby even when looking through your twisted prism.

Derm McCrum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555156" data-time="1454112414">
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Ireland have hosted about a dozen RWC games in total, including 3 play-offs. Some of the crowds were pretty abysmal, I think 3000 for one game in Dublin, and 9000 for another in Belfast.
 
They weather would be pretty chilly and wet - unless they held it in the middle of summer.
 
South Africa receives direct flights from most major European cities.
 
Its infrastructure is the equal of Ireland's - only on a much bigger scale.
 
But, yes, we'll have to wait and see. All things being equal, it ought to come down to a choice between globalization through continental rotation or returning the tournament to its motherland (the Home Unions) for the fifth time from 10 events. I say 'ought to' because more likely it'll come down to the wheeling and dealing of the central committee members behind-the-scenes. 
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You seem to consistently ignore that since I live here, I would know what the weather would be like in September and October in Dublin. Chilly and wet it wasn't.
 
Crowds for matches in the 90s are hardly an indicator of attendances today or levels of interest. There were 1,500 turning up to some Leinster club matches in the late nineties - today, they can fill Lansdowne Road. 
 
You illustrate my point perfectly - Ireland's involvement in two of the previous RWCs was a small number of the total matches. They shared a pool with Scotland in the first one. No sense of being involved, ownership or hosting the event.
 
Edit: The match attendances were for a game in Belfast at Ravenhill between Japan and Zimbabwe. Ravenhill capacity at the time was 12,200 and they got a crowd of 9,500 in 1991. Ignoring the fact that 54,000 turned up to watch Aus v NZ in the same tournament.
The 3,000 game was between USA and Romania at Lansdowne Road , held the day before Ireland played Australia to a full house.
 
One could argue that since SA is a "superpower in rugby" and has hosted it before, and a Soccer World Cup as well for good measure, then it would be better to award it to a country where the game is growing and needs to be encouraged further to grow participation in the game, and that hasn't hosted it before.

Rowan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="555158" data-time="1454113149">
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Ellis Park was half empty for the All Blacks second test in South Africa since readmission during the 1995 World Cup. So scratch that off the list.
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Even half empty that's over 30,000. & this is what Ellis Park looked like last time a RWC match was staged there:

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555149" data-time="1454111320">" If the opinion was that widely held the evidence would be easy to find." So why don't you disprove it for us?</blockquote> That's not how it works. The burden of proof is on the one who asserts. <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rowan" data-cid="555157" data-time="1454112917">As far as Super Rugby stats go, last year the Stormers averaged 40,000 per home game</blockquote>No they didn't. Why do you lie about easily verifiable data?

Rowan

I can't believe we're even comparing South Africa and Ireland's weather conditions. That's a no-contest, just like the stadia comparisons.
 
"One could argue that since SA is a "superpower in rugby" and has hosted it before, and a Soccer World Cup as well for good measure, then it would be better to award it to a country where the game is growing and needs to be encouraged further to grow participation in the game, and that hasn't hosted it before."
 
Only Italy among the bidding nations fits that description, but that's another 6 Nations member in the same small corner of of the planet. Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled to see them awarded the 2027 World Cup - which isn't so far away. But giving it to a developing nation every time would be a little reckless. We need to look after the established markets as well. In fact, that's absolutely crucial. Globalization means spreading the game around the continents, not concentrating your efforts on a bunch of nations in one particular region of the planet. So I think the wisest approach from both angles would be to alternate it between rugby heartlands and developing nations; just as it ought to be alternated between the hemispheres (something that won't happen in 2019). Therefore, South Africa in 2023, Italy in 2027 seems like the perfect formula to me.

The Silver Fern

2023 (expanded) World Cup in South Africa