Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final
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Jason Floros (Queensland Bulls) was a pace bowler all through his age grade years in ACT but made the Queensland team as an off spinning allrounder.
In think that in these cases it is just that the pace aspect isn't top level but as an allround skilled cricketer they can add a few overs of spin to their bag of skills.
I guess that the original question was whether anyone is good at both and can fill a dual role in a team.
I imagine that Jamieson could develop a nasty top spinner. -
@mn5 said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Mark Waugh realised he was never gonna be as good at batting as Steve and switched from Medium to spin if I remember rightly.
In that case I hope Steve Waugh tries his hand at commentary very soon.
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@rotated said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Throwing out a wild idea - how come more (any) fast bowlers don't also teach themselves to bowl spin? There's heaps of specialist batsman who seem to be able to roll down a few overs of spin in international cricket, but I can't really recall anyone since Gary Sobers who bowled specialist seam and spin (and Sir Garfield bowled both offspin and legspin as required - as well as being a sensational batsman).
Colin Miller is probably the closest we've seen.
Shane Thompson transitioned from seam to spin and was not as good. Around 2003-4ish Scott Styris was semi-seriously trying to develop his offspin to become a second spinning option but I don't think we saw it at international level.
I think Chris Harris just sat on the fence between the two. Was he slow-slow-medium or quick spin?
He alternated between dibbly and dobbly as was the style in the mid 90s.
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@higgins said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy The Black Caps opposition more often than not did have one or two like them though.
Was getting at the point that we can have future success now that we have the pathways, the money (IPL, etc) and the inspiration for young players. Christ it was depressing being a cricket fan in NZ for years, let alone aspiring to be a player. Hopefully that has or will change now.
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@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Throwing out a wild idea - how come more (any) fast bowlers don't also teach themselves to bowl spin? There's heaps of specialist batsman who seem to be able to roll down a few overs of spin in international cricket, but I can't really recall anyone since Gary Sobers who bowled specialist seam and spin (and Sir Garfield bowled both offspin and legspin as required - as well as being a sensational batsman).
You'd think that a specialist seamer would be more likely to also make a good spinner compared to a batsman - but, none of them seem to bother. And I've never seen anyone in the nets at club cricket who didn't fuck around a bit bowling (or trying to bowl) a bit of spin.
Tony Greig switched from seam to spin sometimes and famously took a bunch of wickets in the West Indies that way.
The legendary Mike Procter used to bowl off spin well as well as bowling lightning quick off the wrong foot and making pots of runs. What a player he was.
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I think it is temperament as to why people don't change. I was a fast bowler and bowling spin would be like retiring.
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@kiwipie said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Throwing out a wild idea - how come more (any) fast bowlers don't also teach themselves to bowl spin? There's heaps of specialist batsman who seem to be able to roll down a few overs of spin in international cricket, but I can't really recall anyone since Gary Sobers who bowled specialist seam and spin (and Sir Garfield bowled both offspin and legspin as required - as well as being a sensational batsman).
You'd think that a specialist seamer would be more likely to also make a good spinner compared to a batsman - but, none of them seem to bother. And I've never seen anyone in the nets at club cricket who didn't fuck around a bit bowling (or trying to bowl) a bit of spin.
Tony Greig switched from seam to spin sometimes and famously took a bunch of wickets in the West Indies that way.
The legendary Mike Procter used to bowl off spin well as well as bowling lightning quick off the wrong foot and making pots of runs. What a player he was.
He coulda been better than Paddles, Beefy, Imran and Kapiti by some accounts. Sounds like a hell of a player robbed of a decent test career.
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@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I think it is temperament as to why people don't change. I was a fast bowler and bowling spin would be like retiring.
I was a fast bowler too when I talk about my cricket career.
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@reprobate said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Didn't Chris Harris pretty much switch from bowling seam to leggies? but never gained much recognition largely because his pace bowling was the same speed?
Yes, and yes. Exact same speed and bowling action (apart from wrist).
But changed from seam-up big banana in swingers, to leg spinners. But they were more rollers that angle in and straightened.
If you want to see his transition, then watch the Chris Harris part of this video at 4:53, which I made btw, as I'm an anorak.
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@crazy-horse said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I think it is temperament as to why people don't change. I was a fast bowler and bowling spin would be like retiring.
I was a fast bowler too when I talk about my cricket career.
It is a relative term.
I really just hurled a hard red ball at people. Very satisfying.
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@crazy-horse said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I have a memory of Hadlee bowling left arm spin in a test once. Anyone else remember that? Or have imagined it?
Yes. Also to plug my video.
Bowled to Robin Smith's big brother.
Here at 2 mins 47 sec:
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@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@crazy-horse said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@snowy said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I think it is temperament as to why people don't change. I was a fast bowler and bowling spin would be like retiring.
I was a fast bowler too when I talk about my cricket career.
It is a relative term.
I really just hurled a hard red ball at people. Very satisfying.
You and your funny hobbies.
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@crucial said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
You and your funny hobbies.
I wish that they would let me throw cricket balls at people in general. I'm told that it isn't allowed. Fucking rules everywhere.
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@cyclops said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Ravindra could be another contender for all-rounder. Especially if he wants to break in to the side now that Young and Conway look to have locked up the top order spots even after Taylor retires, he could try and make it as a number 6 who gives us a spin option.
If this next test was just a normal test and not the WTC Final, I'm about 99% certain that Ravindra would be debuting as the batsman who can bowl spin, allowing the 4 seamers balance. Ajaz would be in the starting 11 for Asian tours only, and probably come in, if all else being constant, when Wagner retired.
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@rotated said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Throwing out a wild idea - how come more (any) fast bowlers don't also teach themselves to bowl spin? There's heaps of specialist batsman who seem to be able to roll down a few overs of spin in international cricket, but I can't really recall anyone since Gary Sobers who bowled specialist seam and spin (and Sir Garfield bowled both offspin and legspin as required - as well as being a sensational batsman).
Colin Miller is probably the closest we've seen.
Shane Thompson transitioned from seam to spin and was not as good. Around 2003-4ish Scott Styris was semi-seriously trying to develop his offspin to become a second spinning option but I don't think we saw it at international level.
Thomson was who I thought of when I saw the question, but agree that he was never that good. He switched because of injury IIRC.
That said, nothing wrong with 6/1/4 unless the pitch is very spin friendly.
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@rapido awesome mate. Nobody I've mentioned this to can remember it. I was beginning to think I had imagined it.
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Paul Hitchcock started off his domestic career as an off spinner. MAybe second string for his province, can't really remember. Then re-appeared a few years later as Blackcaps level white-ball death overs yorker specialist.
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@rotated said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@chris-b said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Throwing out a wild idea - how come more (any) fast bowlers don't also teach themselves to bowl spin? There's heaps of specialist batsman who seem to be able to roll down a few overs of spin in international cricket, but I can't really recall anyone since Gary Sobers who bowled specialist seam and spin (and Sir Garfield bowled both offspin and legspin as required - as well as being a sensational batsman).
Colin Miller is probably the closest we've seen.
Shane Thompson transitioned from seam to spin and was not as good. Around 2003-4ish Scott Styris was semi-seriously trying to develop his offspin to become a second spinning option but I don't think we saw it at international level.
#booboo
I nearly jumped in with "Colin Funky Miller" but t thought I'd read the thread first
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@booboo said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
but t thought I'd read the thread first
WTF?
Who are you?
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@scribe said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Forecast for Southampton at end of this week is not looking great at all.
I'm doing a trackday at Thruxton on Friday morning, so Ive been keeping an eye on the weather down those ways.
The headline in the BBC app doesn't really correlate well with the the hour by hour forecast. If you look, it's <20% chance of rain at any point in the day. The worst weather is also scheduled for Thursday, which is thunderstorms. I think 50% of the time they forecast thunderstorms, it ends up being blue sky. You need humidity much higher than the UK regularly gets for thunder.
In other words ... don't panic yet!
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The squad gets reduced to 15 tomorrow so we'll see who can't be selected.
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I think as its a one-off test we should select 6 batsmen, and back all 4 seamers (obviously Jamieson is a lock) to bowl 20+ overs in a day if required. So add in Young or Blundell at 6, drop Watling to 7. KW to bowl a few part time overs.
None of CdG/Satnav/Mitchell are really good enough to take up a spot in the #1 team in the world for a championship final! On a non-spin friendly pitch Ajaz isn't going to trouble the Indians much.
Latham
Conway
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls
Young/Blundell
Watling
Jamieson
Wagner
Southee
Boult -
Weather forecast makes it harder for the wicket to dry out like the Edgbaston one. A spinner not so necessary?
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@siam said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Weather forecast makes it harder for the wicket to dry out like the Edgbaston one. A spinner not so necessary?
Yep, and damper conditions should suit our swing bowlers. Ideal.
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@tewaio said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@siam said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Weather forecast makes it harder for the wicket to dry out like the Edgbaston one. A spinner not so necessary?
Yep, and damper conditions should suit our swing bowlers. Ideal.
It's not going to be a sub continent style battle of attrition when we bowl. We have 3 bowlers who have taken wickets in the English series, and they might have issues with the bounce of the Jamieson delivery
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@tewaio said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@siam said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
Weather forecast makes it harder for the wicket to dry out like the Edgbaston one. A spinner not so necessary?
Yep, and damper conditions should suit our swing bowlers. Ideal.
Should suit Bumrah too...
The Indians have a handy seam attack nowadays.
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@crazy-horse said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
The Indians have a handy seam attack nowadays.
This is paramount. You don't beat Australia at home using 5 or 6 quicks without being bloody good. The biggest improvement in Indian cricket and well capable of getting 20 wickets on a seamer.
This final has EVERYTHING.
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I agree with the 6 batsmen 4 seamers approach. I don't think either side is going to pile on 600/4 so attrition shouldn't really come into it. We will want to keep the pressure on their whole innings with quality seam bowling which is our strength, and right now we have 4 extremely high quality seamers.
I'd slot Young at 6 to bat with BJ at 7, that gives us depth in the order which may help push us towards 400 if things go pretty well, which would be a very competitive total in a final.
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@no-quarter said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I agree with the 6 batsmen 4 seamers approach. I don't think either side is going to pile on 600/4 so attrition shouldn't really come into it. We will want to keep the pressure on their whole innings with quality seam bowling which is our strength, and right now we have 4 extremely high quality seamers.
I'd slot Young at 6 to bat with BJ at 7, that gives us depth in the order which may help push us towards 400 if things go pretty well, which would be a very competitive total in a final.
I'm favouring that way too, but mostly because of the weather helping bowling loads. No way are the players going to do 6 continuous hours on the field each day. I'm a bit suss on not having a 5th bowler ( bowler workloads are different from the windies era) and to me that's akin to the 6/2 split of rugby substitutes - it can definitely work but you can also be unnecessarily exposed.
I've dialled up my " meh" factor for the 11th player. With the calibre of the other 10, it won't be his fault if we lose.
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@siam said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
@no-quarter said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
I agree with the 6 batsmen 4 seamers approach. I don't think either side is going to pile on 600/4 so attrition shouldn't really come into it. We will want to keep the pressure on their whole innings with quality seam bowling which is our strength, and right now we have 4 extremely high quality seamers.
I'd slot Young at 6 to bat with BJ at 7, that gives us depth in the order which may help push us towards 400 if things go pretty well, which would be a very competitive total in a final.
I'm favouring that way too, but mostly because of the weather helping bowling loads. No way are the players going to do 6 continuous hours on the field each day. I'm a bit suss on not having a 5th bowler ( bowler workloads are different from the windies era) and to me that's akin to the 6/2 split of rugby substitutes - it can definitely work but you can also be unnecessarily exposed.
I've dialled up my " meh" factor for the 11th player. With the calibre of the other 10, it won't be his fault if we lose.
The bowling load isn't a huge deal because of the sixth day - if it rains they will get a break and if it doesn't we can slow the over rate with impunity (see England at Lords') for a one off test - if Kane is suspended for the first Bangladesh test so be it.
From a bowling perspective I agree with you, but batting wise if Jamieson bats 7 and Southee 8 (as is the case with most sides including Patel) - then you do run a real risk of stranding a Williamson or Taylor in full stride earlier than usual and will rue not having another batting option. Both Young and Blundell would at least be a trusted partner to rotate the strike etc and let them keep playing their natural game. I know CdG and Mitchell have had good returns at test level at times too - butthey always seem to go with the momentum of the game and struggle against top tier bowling.
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Weather for Southampton for Friday, Saturday and Sunday looking dodgy.
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@rotated said in Cricket 2021: NZ in England and WTC Final:
The bowling load isn't a huge deal because of the sixth day - if it rains they will get a break and if it doesn't we can slow the over rate with impunity (see England at Lords') for a one off test - if Kane is suspended for the first Bangladesh test so be it.
oh, this would be the most cynical of cricketing efforts. Slow to 12 overs per hour, let the bowlers have a rest, push into a sixth day if needed. Then if anyone complains just lead with
'like boundary countbacks, it's in the rules'
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It’s certainly been pretty hot over the last week in England and this continues until Thursday.
As we have all probably heard, tests in Southampton have been seam friendly recently with spinners not having anywhere the same success.
My big concern was Southampton being a bit drier and more spin friendly.
We can be very confident going into the final, great preparation and most players have had some success over the last 2 tests. I hope that our experiences in the last 2 finals we have played have meant that we now understand what is required to win a final and have the hunger to do so.
India will be very tough opposition though and are a very strong side. I hope our lead up in England will give us an edge that will ultimately prove to be enough.
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My biggest concern is they will deviate from what has worked the last 6 months, the 4 seamer attack.
Ajax bowled well , bloody well but surely the Indian batsmen face better in the nets? They play spin all the time, and quality wise for greater then what we can provide.
Picking Satnav will be incredibly disappointing, CDG i could live with though it feels hes been away from the game too long.We miss having a top order batsmen who can be relied on to bowl and pick up the odd wicket, the likes of a Astle or McMillan.
Someone who could be relied on to break a partnership.
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