Super Rugby Women's Competition
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@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kirwan or you could look at it this way.
The NZRU are in the business of selling products. At the moment they are at the limit of getting material to make those products. Also their customer demographic has stayed the same for years.
Now wouldn’t it make business sense to grow by making new products? Sure you may have to invest in some R&D but the product quality will improve at the same time.
Only at that point do you see whether the new product has a sustainable market.
Or you could stick with your maxed out production line and wonder why income and markets aren’t growing.
That argument about waiting as long as the men’s game did is plain stupid.I mentioned the 1995 men thing because for decades men did play for free.
On the back of the worst year in professional finances, expanding your costs for an unproven product is what's stupid. If it's well supported, particularly on TV, then it's a safer bet.
I suspect the viewing figures will be pretty poor however.
I'd start by paying the woman sevens team, as that's an Olympic requirement anyway. And build from there.
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@kirwan the Black Fern Sevens do have paid contracted players as do the Black Ferns. As per your pay for play model they get paid fairly small amounts.
What the suggestion is is that if you pay players to train and play you will get the skill improvements that you are after. Amateurs will continue to play like amateurs.
I can’t see how you expect players to play like highly trained pros when they are trying to earn a living elsewhere and only then consider to pay them when they reach that level.
For the ongoing health of the sport having a strong women’s game is a key aspect. -
@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kirwan the Black Fern Sevens do have paid contracted players as do the Black Ferns. As per your pay for play model they get paid fairly small amounts.
What the suggestion is is that if you pay players to train and play you will get the skill improvements that you are after. Amateurs will continue to play like amateurs.
I can’t see how you expect players to play like highly trained pros when they are trying to earn a living elsewhere and only then consider to pay them when they reach that level.
For the ongoing health of the sport having a strong women’s game is a key aspect.Where does the money come from?
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@kirwan said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@kirwan the Black Fern Sevens do have paid contracted players as do the Black Ferns. As per your pay for play model they get paid fairly small amounts.
What the suggestion is is that if you pay players to train and play you will get the skill improvements that you are after. Amateurs will continue to play like amateurs.
I can’t see how you expect players to play like highly trained pros when they are trying to earn a living elsewhere and only then consider to pay them when they reach that level.
For the ongoing health of the sport having a strong women’s game is a key aspect.Where does the money come from?
There a number of good studies on the huge potential of growing the commercial side of women’s sports. I don’t see investing into future revenue as a bad thing.
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@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
I can’t see how you expect players to play like highly trained pros when they are trying to earn a living elsewhere and only then consider to pay them when they reach that level.
even if they do play like that, you need people to want to pay to watch them play for it to become a viable product.
Right or wrong, I think right now, the market for those who would pay to watch just the Black Ferns is limited so how do you justify NZR paying them for a product that would lose money on, in an already trying financial situation?
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@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
I can’t see how you expect players to play like highly trained pros when they are trying to earn a living elsewhere and only then consider to pay them when they reach that level.
even if they do play like that, you need people to want to pay to watch them play for it to become a viable product.
Right or wrong, I think right now, the market for those who would pay to watch just the Black Ferns is limited so how do you justify NZR paying them for a product that would lose money on, in an already trying financial situation?
Exactly.
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@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@crucial said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
I can’t see how you expect players to play like highly trained pros when they are trying to earn a living elsewhere and only then consider to pay them when they reach that level.
even if they do play like that, you need people to want to pay to watch them play for it to become a viable product.
Right or wrong, I think right now, the market for those who would pay to watch just the Black Ferns is limited so how do you justify NZR paying them for a product that would lose money on, in an already trying financial situation?
You pay for a right to receive a package of rugby. If the NZRU can get more money (or these days keep the same money) for having more goods on the shelf then surely that is the cost/benefit equation. Same goes for the U20s Super Comp that is proposed btw.
For the broadcaster that isn't just down to eyes on the screen. They will have research on whether more women's sports get's/keeps them subscribers.
Your thinking on this is way too tunnelled IMO.NZR have obviously done the numbers and know their commercial situation and asks from customers. They think the time is now right to get on-board and quite obviously their broadcasting partners do as well.
I don't get why you seem to want less rugby on screen. -
I'm happy for this to receive some seed money to get it off the ground, but within a few years (say, by 2025) there should also be a benchmark level of viewership/TV rights money which is required to keep it going.
I don't see this as a big earner, but if it can pay for itself, awesome, and if it can generate profit, even better.
I don't think it will generate profit, or even cover costs, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
If it does spur growth in grass roots participation, that might also justify the cost.
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@siam said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
I'd be interested in how they'll avoid the pitfalls of the WNBA. I don't know anything about that, but on paper it probably looked potentially good for the game. I guess the amateur participation ingredient is a major point of difference.
Closer to home would be the School Rugby they put on TV, or going back way further Friday Night Club footy. What was the viewing numbers on those? Did they cover their costs?
I doubt it, and I doubt the same for the womans rugby.
If you go by other types of TV, the first season is usually the best ratings, how did the womans Super Rugby launch rate?
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@kirwan haha me too! I only put two and two together after I'd already posted it. But hey, look at the great debate!
I tend to agree with one of the first replies to Sumo's tweet - it shouldn't really matter if it's run at a loss (unless it's ridiculous of course).
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The NPC is a loss-making competition isn't it? I'd be interested to know how much Sky pays for the TV broadcasting rights relative to the grants NZR gives to the provincial unions.
Heartland rugby is a cost to NZR and the players aren't paid or any games shown live until the finals. If it was just about making a profit, or breaking even, we'd be left with SR and AB tests.
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How about we put the "equality between the sexes" principle to the test and imagine that NZ Netball decided to provide an opportunity for a Men's league - exactly the same as NZRU are doing for women's rugby?
I wonder what the viability of that would be? The reaction from the existing netball sorority? Gushing support from the media?
Calm down, I'm making the point that comparing the sexes on the basis of equality is a failed concept. It veers into equality of outcome and illuminates fools like the woman in the tweet.
NZRUs push to provide equality of opportunity is highly and wholly commendable. Once the opportunity is rightfully given then the project is dependent on itself, and comparisons to male rugby are doomed to divide good intentioned people.
Watch out for this great opportunity for girls if it's contaminated and hindered by people focusing on outcomes- from both sexes.
Rule 4: "Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today." 🙂
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@siam said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
How about we put the "equality between the sexes" principle to the test and imagine that NZ Netball decided to provide an opportunity for a Men's league - exactly the same as NZRU are doing for women's rugby?
I wonder what the viability of that would be? The reaction from the existing netball sorority? Gushing support from the media?
Calm down, I'm making the point that comparing the sexes on the basis of equality is a failed concept. It veers into equality of outcome and illuminates fools like the woman in the tweet.
NZRUs push to provide equality of opportunity is highly and wholly commendable. Once the opportunity is rightfully given then the project is dependent on itself, and comparisons to male rugby are doomed to divide good intentioned people.
Watch out for this great opportunity for girls if it's contaminated and hindered by people focusing on outcomes- from both sexes.
Rule 4: "Compare yourself with who you were yesterday, not with who someone else is today." 🙂
I basically agree, but it’s worth pointing out the Olympics requirement.
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@bovidae although most NPC teams have been operating within themselves in recent years, no longer running at losses, but fair point.
But yea I guess it depends how much growth you expect from the woman's game internationally and therefore potential revenue increases.
Reality is, some woman's sports are often perceived as an inferior product to the men's version, so while there may be increased participation it doesn't always translate to dollars.
I do wonder what number of fans would pay same price of admission to watch the Black Ferns v Aus at Eden Park that they would for ABs v Aus, as a stand alone, not a curtain raiser (and again if you replicated in Aus) and similarly eyeballs on tv.
I'm not putting the product down, I just think we are a long way off them selling out EP for a BFs test
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@taniwharugby said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
@bovidae although most NPC teams have been operating within themselves in recent years, no longer running at losses, but fair point.
If you removed the annual NZR grant I doubt that the PUs would be able to pay their players/staff and survive solely on sponsorship income and gate receipts.
I do wonder what number of fans would pay same price of admission to watch the Black Ferns v Aus at Eden Park that they would for ABs v Aus, as a stand alone, not a curtain raiser (and again if you replicated in Aus) and similarly eyeballs on tv.
I'm not putting the product down, I just think we are a long way off them selling out EP for a BFs test
I agree with that. From memory, the first women's rugby test I went to was in the late 1990s. The likes of Vanessa Cootes and Louisa Wall were playing. I've been to a few more in Hamilton since then but entry has always been free.
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Can I be a complete misogynistic arsehole and point out that no one wants to see women play sport unless they look like beach volleyballers ?
No matter how professional they get the blokes are always gonna be fitter, faster, stronger and more skilled overall. So people will watch them instead.
Anyway, must dash the other half is getting my pipe and slippers ready after a hard days work.
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@bovidae SUper Rugby teams would likewise be unable to survive is they had to rely on gate takings and sponsorships generated by themselves. Money from the PUs share of the television rights paid to the NZRFU technically is the PUs anyway given they are the providers of the product being televised.
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@mn5 said in Super Rugby Women's Competition:
Can I be a complete misogynistic arsehole and point out that no one wants to see women play sport unless they look like beach volleyballers ?
No matter how professional they get the blokes are always gonna be fitter, faster, stronger and more skilled overall. So people will watch them instead.
Anyway, must dash the other half is getting my pipe and slippers ready after a hard days work.
Is that what they call "an inconvenient truth"?😉
