Documentaries
-
@Crazy-Horse said in Documentaries:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
@MiketheSnow said in Documentaries:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
Facscinating posts. I don't want to get too serious or heavy but I think it's a really complex area.
For the vast, vast majority of cases - even murders - locking people up for long periods in harsh conditions as some sort of deterrent just doesn't work or make things safer. If it did, then the US would be the safest country in the world. Years since I studied this at Uni but I recall that the only country in the OECD area which didn't increase custodial sentences in response to the big increase in property crime in the 90's-2000's (France I think) was the only country to see a fall in these crimes. They focussed on restoration and rehabilitation.
In the Bulger case, from what's been released, one of the two killers, Thompson, seems to have been rehabilitated and done OK while Venables has had plenty of problems. And child killers seem to go on to live pretty normal or productive lives - eg Mary Bell. Juliet Hulme of the Parker-Hulme case went on to be a best selling author and her partner in murder became IIRC, a respected teacher I guess the trick is to balance the public need for retribution (often media-led) against the hard logic of rehabilitation, preventing re-offending, reducing further harms and making society as whole safer.
That said, it's pretty clear some people should just never be let out. I wouldn't just limit this to what we'd call psychopaths but also to those who abuse their position in the criminal justice system and cause real harm - evidence-fiddling police officers & those who destroy evidence in child sex abuse cases for example. Way too many don't even get charged let alone made to account for their crimes - and cause huge harm to society.
You had me until France
Too long to remember the exact details, but it was around burglary & car theft. Most Western countries took a hard line on sentencing and/or toughened the law in response to big increases in rates. France took a completely different approach and focussed on likely offenders (prevention) and avoided jailing offenders where possible (which meant they didn't swap ideas in prison) but used probation making then pay for any damage caused.
I wonder if that worked for France? What did they do if the offenders didn't pay for the damage caused? I bet lots didn't. And also, if they aren't swapping ideas in prison then they are likely to be on the street swapping ideas and putting those ideas into practice.
As I mentioned, ages since I did this stuff, but here goes.
The trick is to prevent crime and repeat crime (re-offending). Banging someone up doesn't help to reduce re-offending rates - quite the opposite as it helps create career criminals which costs society a bunch of money. And it's much easier to swap ideas about not getting caught with a concentrated group of people who have been caught multiple times
Like everything, it isn't black and white and clearly you need to lock up dangerous criminals, but for low-level stuff and minor offenders, prison is most effective when used as a rehabilitation centre - not as a deterrent (if it did crime in the USA would be incredibly low). And rehabilitation can be cheaper and more effective if it's doesn't outside of a prison environment. There's a lot of smart companies who pro-actively seek out first or second offenders, invest in training them and give them job as they often are better employees. Link here
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
@Crazy-Horse said in Documentaries:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
@MiketheSnow said in Documentaries:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
Facscinating posts. I don't want to get too serious or heavy but I think it's a really complex area.
For the vast, vast majority of cases - even murders - locking people up for long periods in harsh conditions as some sort of deterrent just doesn't work or make things safer. If it did, then the US would be the safest country in the world. Years since I studied this at Uni but I recall that the only country in the OECD area which didn't increase custodial sentences in response to the big increase in property crime in the 90's-2000's (France I think) was the only country to see a fall in these crimes. They focussed on restoration and rehabilitation.
In the Bulger case, from what's been released, one of the two killers, Thompson, seems to have been rehabilitated and done OK while Venables has had plenty of problems. And child killers seem to go on to live pretty normal or productive lives - eg Mary Bell. Juliet Hulme of the Parker-Hulme case went on to be a best selling author and her partner in murder became IIRC, a respected teacher I guess the trick is to balance the public need for retribution (often media-led) against the hard logic of rehabilitation, preventing re-offending, reducing further harms and making society as whole safer.
That said, it's pretty clear some people should just never be let out. I wouldn't just limit this to what we'd call psychopaths but also to those who abuse their position in the criminal justice system and cause real harm - evidence-fiddling police officers & those who destroy evidence in child sex abuse cases for example. Way too many don't even get charged let alone made to account for their crimes - and cause huge harm to society.
You had me until France
Too long to remember the exact details, but it was around burglary & car theft. Most Western countries took a hard line on sentencing and/or toughened the law in response to big increases in rates. France took a completely different approach and focussed on likely offenders (prevention) and avoided jailing offenders where possible (which meant they didn't swap ideas in prison) but used probation making then pay for any damage caused.
I wonder if that worked for France? What did they do if the offenders didn't pay for the damage caused? I bet lots didn't. And also, if they aren't swapping ideas in prison then they are likely to be on the street swapping ideas and putting those ideas into practice.
As I mentioned, ages since I did this stuff, but here goes.
The trick is to prevent crime and repeat crime (re-offending). Banging someone up doesn't help to reduce re-offending rates - quite the opposite as it helps create career criminals which costs society a bunch of money. And it's much easier to swap ideas about not getting caught with a concentrated group of people who have been caught multiple times
Like everything, it isn't black and white and clearly you need to lock up dangerous criminals, but for low-level stuff and minor offenders, prison is most effective when used as a rehabilitation centre - not as a deterrent (if it did crime in the USA would be incredibly low). And rehabilitation can be cheaper and more effective if it's doesn't outside of a prison environment. There's a lot of smart companies who pro-actively seek out first or second offenders, invest in training them and give them job as they often are better employees. Link here
I guess I am just a bit cynical about the touchy-feely stuff when it comes to this sort of stuff. Queensland tried it with juveniles and look where it has gotten the state. Juveniles running rampant with very little consequences. And I can assure you, the public don't know half the stuff that is really going on out there.
I doubt there is an answer to be honest. Some kids/people may be swayed no matter what system is used, but bad eggs are going to be bad eggs.
-
@Crazy-Horse said in Documentaries:
I guess I am just a bit cynical about the touchy-feely stuff when it comes to this sort of stuff.
Less touchy-feely than about intervention, prevention and rehabilitation to reduce crime and harms to society overall. That's a harder thing to do - and sell - than simply jail people or give first offenders a free pass. Family breakdown and a lack of fathers has a huge, huge impact on crime rates.
Def. people who should be kept off the street though. And not just in the criminal classes as we're finding out here with multiple rapists and sex abusers in the Met Police.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
@Crazy-Horse said in Documentaries:
I guess I am just a bit cynical about the touchy-feely stuff when it comes to this sort of stuff.
Less touchy-feely than about intervention, prevention and rehabilitation to reduce crime and harms to society overall. That's a harder thing to do - and sell - than simply jail people or give first offenders a free pass. Family breakdown and a lack of fathers has a huge, huge impact on crime rates.
Def. people who should be kept off the street though. And not just in the criminal classes as we're finding out here with multiple rapists and sex abusers in the Met Police.
I get the theory, I have studied it and I live it every working day. It's all well and good if people want to change and I am all for helping them. Unfortunately there are many who do not want to change. They use the system to their advantage. Somehow we need to find the balance.
-
@Crazy-Horse said in Documentaries:
They use the system to their advantage. Somehow we need to find the balance.
Yep. And rehab & prevention isn't easy to do and sell.
-
When I grow up I want to be Levison Wood.
Right into his crossing of the Caucasus. Walking from Russia to Iran. Apparently back in 2017.
Thing that sticks out for me is that if I was JRR Tolkien and was looking for a location to base TLOTR and everything associated therewith it would be here.
-
@booboo have you watched them all? I really enjoyed them, fascinating stuff.
Currently watching An Idiot Abroad.
-
@taniwharugby not comprehensively. Caught most of Walking the Americas, which was good, and bits of Arabia, which I haven't enjoyed so much.
Will be on the lookout for his other stuff though.
-
@booboo was probably the causacus, russia, georgian, nile ones I liked most, but rest are all good to watch...think it was the Russia to Iran one he went to a country where it only recently became illegal to kidnap a woman to make your wife
-
@MiketheSnow said in Documentaries:
Pepsi Where’s My Jet
ExcellentI'm three episodes in and have decided I don't like anyone on either side of this.
Pretty interesting doco though.
-
Anyone else watched the Ch5 Wayne Couzens doco yet?
The shocking truth about the serving police officer who killed Sarah Everard.
Ahh man. Fuck me. Troubling and frustrating in equal measure, some jaw dropping stuff in there.
Example, a stat shown related to the number of police officers with multiple allegations of sexual offence in the last six years (259).
Two have more than 15. Do they not sit back at say 3, and go...hang on? How the fuck does it get to 15!
-
The Met is rotten from the top down. Has been for years.
-
@Victor-Meldrew yeah had my eyes properly opened to that when I started listening to the Daniel Morgan podcast in 2016.
-
Finally got around to watching Icarus, and it doesn't disappoint. Starting out as one man's experiment to singlehandedly prove how to beat world doping testing, it morphs into a story akin to a cold war era spy thriller as the extent of Russian government sanctioned doping and cheating is revealed. Highly recommended
-
I'm watching this at the moment.
-
-
yeah i am watching it too, i reckon it's pretty great
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Documentaries:
@Crazy-Horse said in Documentaries:
They use the system to their advantage. Somehow we need to find the balance.
Yep. And rehab & prevention isn't easy to do and sell.
The issue is that rehabilitation only works when someone wants to be rehabilitated.
And figuring out in a justice system who wants to and who doesn't is incredibly tricky...
-
Just watched this, definitely well worth it and pretty interesting to hear how it was all put together.
Lionel Richie, Huey Lewis, Bruce Springsteen and Kenny Loggins come across as bloody nice and incredibly humble guys for the huge stars that they are.
Prince sounds like a cock for not turning up ( still a fucken genius though )
Cyndi Lauper has a voice like nails on a blackboard.
So does Bob Dylan.
What the fuck was Dan Aykroyd doing there ?
Cracked me up how Waylon Jennings walked out the moment Stevie Wonder wanted to sing in Swahili.
Even funnier when it was pointed out to Stevie that they don’t speak Swahili in Ethiopia.
Sounds like an absolute logistical nightmare but hats off to Lionel for sorting it.
Life on Our Planet (TV Mini Series 2023) ⭐ 8.1 | Documentary
