All Blacks 2021

[L_n_P]

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

I actually like our coaches going overseas , as I really believe it makes them better coaches, Henry, Hansen etc were I believe better coaches for doing overseas gigs.
Listen to Eddie Jones who says he thinks he learns more off players than they learn off him!

Me too. It's why I'd rather see Joe Schmid or Jamie Joseph as the next AB head coach rather than Scott Robertson next round

I may get flamed on the Fern - but for many reasons including his own development I'd love to see SR coach England after Eddie and return to NZ downstream

[get stuffed]

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

Yeah, no doubt if you have the right people at the top in any organization consistently making good decisions & hiring the best people available that organization is going to run smoothly from the top all the way through.

I've mentioned before you can't come up with big innovations tactics wise as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments - at one stage Henry came up with an idiotic so called innovated game plan, that he use for 2 or 3 tests, holding onto the ball even if you're only a couple of metres out from your own goal line, hilarious, how did he think that was ever going to work ? one of the golden rules in the game is never stuff around deep in your own danger zone.

Totally (not a structural issue) but a strength of great coaches like Henry, Eddie Jones maybe is an ability to try experimental tactics, risk failures, and learn from it

Not sure if posted here before but I liked this btw!

Never thought Henry was a great coach - he didn't show any insight whatsoever by using such a silly game plan in a test in the first place, yet he used it in 2 or 3 tests in a row ? - as mentioned before you can only make small new adjustments in your game plan or tactics as it's all been done before.
His rotation policy was way over the top too, by consistently changing either a whole team or too many players in every test, if you keep changing too many players every test you're obviously going to lose most of your continuity/cohesion... Hansen in his last year used the same type of rotation policy going into that RWC, which is the main reason we looked so disjointed & disorganized.

[Kiwiwomble]

@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere

[get stuffed]

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere

Yeah, he finally learnt - but why try something that was never going to work anyway ? ...Henry had so many great players in his team over those periods, like McCaw, Carter, etc.

[Kiwiwomble]

@kiwibloke i think we didn't really know rotating that much wouldn't work until he tried it, at the time i remember thinking it could be amazing, to have effectively 2 full teams of world class level? wow!..... its easy to look back now and claim to have known all along

thats why im more critical of fozzie, he seems to be trying to do it again but this time we have already seen it fail...and that was with better players

[bobily2]

I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.

[KiwiMurph]

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

Never thought Henry was a great coach

You're a tough marker if Henry doesn't make it as a great coach if you go by his resume.

Even taking out his All Black days his resume is seriously impressive.

• 4 NPC titles in a row in the 90s
• 2 Super Rugby titles + extra time final loss in 3 seasons as Blues head coach
• 11 straight wins as Wales coach including first ever win over Springboks
• Came within a whisker of beating World Champion Wallabies in 2001 as coach of the Lions. That Wallabies team was the best team in the world (Rod Macqueen stepped down after that series). He didn't win the series but not all Lions series are equal - that 2001 Wallabies side was better than a lot of other sides the Lions have toured against (2017 ABs, 2013 Wallabies etc)
• Assistant coach for NPC title (2002)
• Assistant coach for Blues title (2003)
• Assistant coach for NPC title (2018)

[get stuffed]

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke i think we didn't really know rotating that much wouldn't work until he tried it, at the time i remember thinking it could be amazing, to have effectively 2 full teams of world class level? wow!..... its easy to look back now and claim to have known all along

thats why im more critical of fozzie, he seems to be trying to do it again but this time we have already seen it fail...and that was with better players

Rotating a heap of players is always going to result in a real lack of continuity/cohesion in any team sport, especially in rugby where combinations are so vital - also doesn't matter how much depth any country has in their main sport, your first choice team is always going to be a fair bit better than your next best team you select... so reckon it's far better to feed players into the AB squad that deserve it on merit.

[get stuffed]

@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

Never thought Henry was a great coach

You're a tough marker if Henry doesn't make it as a great coach if you go by his resume.

Even taking out his All Black days his resume is seriously impressive.

• 4 NPC titles in a row in the 90s
• 2 Super Rugby titles + extra time final loss in 3 seasons as Blues head coach
• 11 straight wins as Wales coach including first ever win over Springboks
• Came within a whisker of beating World Champion Wallabies in 2001 as coach of the Lions. That Wallabies team was the best team in the world (Rod Macqueen stepped down after that series). He didn't win the series but not all Lions series are equal - that 2001 Wallabies side was better than a lot of other sides the Lions have toured against (2017 ABs, 2013 Wallabies etc)
• Assistant coach for NPC title (2002)
• Assistant coach for Blues title (2003)
• Assistant coach for NPC title (2018)

And you think that had nothing to do with the players he had in his squads ? especially for the ABs.

[Kiwiwomble]

@kiwibloke ...that list excludes the ab's...as @KiwiMurph said

and nowhere did he say it had nothing to do with the players, but conversely Fozzie has a couple of world players of the year at his disposal and hasn;t done as well....OR if we're going to say the players play the biggest role then we cant hang 2007 on henry and rotation....cant have it both ways

[get stuffed]

@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:

I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.

Changing plenty of players each game outside RWCs is still going to cause cohesion problems in the other matches too... you never give a bloke a chance, he has to earn on form in the Super Rugby comp etc.

[bobily2]

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:

I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.

Changing plenty of players each game outside RWCs is still going to cause cohesion problems in the other matches too... you never give a bloke a chance, he has to earn on form in the Super Rugby comp etc.

I'm not suggesting we pick random players who don't deserve a chance. I also don't think we can do rotation as Graham Henry was doing it, and expect to win. Test rugby has moved on. I just think we want to give the wider AB squad more of a chance against top-level opposition e.g. Taukeiaho played well against Argentina and off the bench against the top teams, but never got a start against those top-level teams. It might've been good to give Tupou Vaii more of a chance, rather than Patrick Tuipulotu - as we knew what Tuipulotu was going to bring. But Ian Foster seems very set on those positions.

[get stuffed]

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke ...that list excludes the ab's...as @KiwiMurph said

and nowhere did he say it had nothing to do with the players, but conversely Fozzie has a couple of world players of the year at his disposal and hasn;t done as well....OR if we're going to say the players play the biggest role then we cant hang 2007 on henry and rotation....cant have it both ways

What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ? ...look back at the hold onto the ball policy no matter where they were on the field, to keep holding onto the ball a couple of metres out from your own goal line is mindless, naturally you never stuff around deep in your own territory, you exit as quick as possible.

You can't compare Foster to any other coach we have had, as every knows he is an incompetent pillock as a head coach, which says a lot about the current NZRU Board too.

[KiwiMurph]

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ?

You could say that with a lot of coaches. Henry had a lot of success outside of the ABs - which is what I was pointing out in my earlier post.

[get stuffed]

@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:

I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.

Changing plenty of players each game outside RWCs is still going to cause cohesion problems in the other matches too... you never give a bloke a chance, he has to earn on form in the Super Rugby comp etc.

I'm not suggesting we pick random players who don't deserve a chance. I also don't think we can do rotation as Graham Henry was doing it, and expect to win. Test rugby has moved on. I just think we want to give the wider AB squad more of a chance against top-level opposition e.g. Taukeiaho played well against Argentina and off the bench against the top teams, but never got a start against those top-level teams. It might've been good to give Tupou Vaii more of a chance, rather than Patrick Tuipulotu - as we knew what Tuipulotu was going to bring. But Ian Foster seems very set on those positions.

Yeah, good point, if a player performs well off the bench he deserves a start, especially against one of the top team to see if he can handle that real mental pressure.
Always thought Tuipulotu was a bit of a plodder, with the fast pace game the ABs play we really want more athletic & better ball playing skilled locks than him.

[get stuffed]

@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ?

You could say that with a lot of coaches. Henry had a lot of success outside of the ABs - which is what I was pointing out in my earlier post.

Yeah, he had a lot of success outside the ABs... my point though is a coach with more insight than Henry would've got the ABs to perform better consistently.

[Kiwiwomble]

@kiwibloke do you think there are a lot of coaches out there that could have improved on a 85% win rate...and thats including seasons like 2009 when we lost 4

[get stuffed]

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke do you think there are a lot of coaches out there that could have improved on a 85% win rate...and thats including seasons like 2009 when we lost 4

Reckon they could have improve a bit percentage wise - but clearly not by too much, as said it comes back to the great pool of players he had... what annoys me about coaches is some really dumb things they try, that you know are poor options & are never going to work.
Lets face it Henry had some real howlers tactic wise.

[Dan54]

This thing just proves what I was saying, the easiest thing to do is judge coaches on what suits the particular poster's argumant.
If you someone decides thay don't like Henry or Hansen, if it pointed out that they have record breaking results as coaches it is whiped out as ahh but they had probably the best players/team in history (and no argument) probably 7-8 of the team would make a world XV in most years they were there. And so Foster has at most 2-3 players that would make a world team, and has best results in year is considered an idiot.
I not arguing who is best or worst,(as I really don't know) but if Henry and Hansen were so ordinary as coaches by all means say who the better AB coaches are or have been, and why?
I genuinely want to know how posters judge coaches. Is it what you read in the papers or on the net? Just for the record I was at a lunch with Tana Umaga speaking in Brisbane, and he was most impressed with Henry as a coach, and I know he was just an All Black captain what would he know! Also at another one that Grant Fox was at and had quite a session with him after, it was most illuminating hearing his ideas etc on player rotation. Some players books I have read a bit of an eyeopener on the effects of too much rugby on bodies etc are, found Sam Warburton's real interesting! Also on what was happening to Ben Smith getting towards end of season and why he was rested, much to everyone's digust!

[taniwharugby]

@kiwibloke we have always been told coaching the ABs is easy cos of our cattle, way we played the past 2 years or so shows that ain't true.