All Blacks 2021

[get stuffed]

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

[African Monkey]

@kiwibloke Yeah, I agree and see your angle, but he had a lot more of a role to play at domestic level and the intensity of Super Rugby is miles down on test level, where there is a lot less focus on the defensive side of the game, hence why you see Laumape hugging the touchline, popping up at first receiver and showing more of short kicking game, and lets not forget, last season he and Jordie Barrett were the only big names in the backline, hence the need for him to offer more in attack.

We never really saw this from him at test level however as his lack of size would see him get monstered by bigger defences at the highest level with his power game that he loved, similar to Sam Tuitupou of years gone by, and there's less room to move for him at the highest level due to a higher focus on the defensive side of the game as well as the darker arts.

So yes, he was more effective at domestic level with more time and room to move, but ineffective at the highest level with defences quickly up in his face, nulifying his power running to go with his small stature.

[Dan54]

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape

You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?

Dont agree that he read the game well at all.

Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.

What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.

You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.

Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.

I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.

You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season

I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas!

He had a fair point, some people were saying a fair bit of nonsense about him, so can't blame him for getting a bit peeved off - of course he was basically dropped, would you take a big pay cut from your job & still stay there ? of course you wouldn't, nor would anyone esle... so after that crap he was always going to leave & go overseas to play.

I don't think he was dropped, just NZR weren't prepared to get into bidding war from everything I read, and don't think it was a big pay cut. I got no probs with him, but any player that figures he wants to head overseas for the guaranteed money (AB contracts include actually being in team) that is up to him. I prefer players that want to fight their way into team myself I said same when Nick Evans etc went) As for if he pissed off because of what idiots say about him on forums etc etc, don't blame him, but you just have to look at the comments on here about players etc from people who just don't really know, and players/coaches/administrators have to be able to ignore it unfortunately. The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv!

Nonsense, I heard him say on tv that he wanted to keep playing for the ABs, but he had no choice so had to go overseas because of the ridiculous pay cut he was offered.

Your ' The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv is a bit of a silly comment - for example you don't just believe anything that any AB coach says, you analyse it for yourself, to see if it makes good sense or not, it's not bloody rocket science... I've said a few things on here about tactics on the rugby threads, so what tactics that I've mentioned don't make sense then ???

Actually never heard the AB coach say anything about him going, where did you see that. I also heard him say he thought he was worth more than NZR were prepared to pay him (as there no big pay rises with Covid cuts), so he was heading overseas, think it was Lendrum? who I saw talking about it on Breakdown. It very similar to Piatau and Luatua, very good players who found more money overseas than playing for ABs, no probs as I said earlier if that's what's important to them, just don't blame anyone else for decision!
Not sure what you talking about with tactics etc? Not sure I actually remember any of your posts. I was suggesting Lumpy shouldn't get upset at people saying things about him etc. You were the one who said he did in earlier post

[L_n_P]

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

[Asterik6]

Just read that Boyd is returning to NZ, could they swap him and Mooar for All Black's attack position? Foster's assistants are still on the chopping board and Mooar looks likeliest to be cut in my opinion...

[Chris]

@asterik6 said in All Blacks 2021:

Just read that Boyd is returning to NZ, could they swap him and Mooar for All Black's attack position? Foster's assistants are still on the chopping board and Mooar looks likeliest to be cut in my opinion...

Could be a good point,I am sure Boyd would be talking to a few people in NZ before he returns.

[Higgins]

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@asterik6 said in All Blacks 2021:

Just read that Boyd is returning to NZ, could they swap him and Mooar for All Black's attack position? Foster's assistants are still on the chopping board and Mooar looks likeliest to be cut in my opinion...

Could be a good point,I am sure Boyd would be talking to a few people in NZ before he returns.

Doesn't he does have the downside of being the coach of Wellington the year they got relegated from the Premiership Pretty sure it was the year that he was also appointed Hurricanes coach.

[canefan]

@higgins said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@asterik6 said in All Blacks 2021:

Just read that Boyd is returning to NZ, could they swap him and Mooar for All Black's attack position? Foster's assistants are still on the chopping board and Mooar looks likeliest to be cut in my opinion...

Could be a good point,I am sure Boyd would be talking to a few people in NZ before he returns.

Doesn't he does have the downside of being the coach of Wellington the year they got relegated from the Premiership Pretty sure it was the year that he was also appointed Hurricanes coach.

On the flipside he is the only Hurricanes coach to win Super Rugby

[Higgins]

@canefan Correct. I gave a lot of the credit at the time for that to Mr. Plumtree given the appalling effort with the Lions but on later reflection Mr. Boyd has done OK with Northampton on a presumably way smaller budget than a lot of the other teams have at their disposal and has them playing a reasonable brand of rugby, Mr. Plumtree on the other hand......................................................

[get stuffed]

@african-monkey said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke Yeah, I agree and see your angle, but he had a lot more of a role to play at domestic level and the intensity of Super Rugby is miles down on test level, where there is a lot less focus on the defensive side of the game, hence why you see Laumape hugging the touchline, popping up at first receiver and showing more of short kicking game, and lets not forget, last season he and Jordie Barrett were the only big names in the backline, hence the need for him to offer more in attack.

We never really saw this from him at test level however as his lack of size would see him get monstered by bigger defences at the highest level with his power game that he loved, similar to Sam Tuitupou of years gone by, and there's less room to move for him at the highest level due to a higher focus on the defensive side of the game as well as the darker arts.

So yes, he was more effective at domestic level with more time and room to move, but ineffective at the highest level with defences quickly up in his face, nulifying his power running to go with his small stature.

Mate, he never got a decent crack at test level, you need to play a fair few games in a row, it's also about getting a combination going with the other midfielder - there's nothing wrong with his mental toughness at test level, also as mentioned he has plenty of variation on attack - he consistently got over the advantage line at provincial, Super Rugby & for the ABs... since the days of Nonu, name me another midfielder the ABs have had that could consistently get us over the advantage line ? the only one I can think of is Laumape.
Yeah, he's short, but he's also built like a tank, it's his low centre of gravity that really helps him power through tackles.
Lets be honest if you're receiving very slow ball it doesn't matter how big or strong a midfield back is as the opposition are standing right on top of them, so they're clearly not going to make any ground at all, that's when the playmakers need to execute a smart kicking game.
Peeves my off that refs let all sides stand well offside.

[get stuffed]

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@chris said in All Blacks 2021:

@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape

You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?

Dont agree that he read the game well at all.

Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.

What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.

You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.

Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.

I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.

You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season

I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas!

He had a fair point, some people were saying a fair bit of nonsense about him, so can't blame him for getting a bit peeved off - of course he was basically dropped, would you take a big pay cut from your job & still stay there ? of course you wouldn't, nor would anyone esle... so after that crap he was always going to leave & go overseas to play.

I don't think he was dropped, just NZR weren't prepared to get into bidding war from everything I read, and don't think it was a big pay cut. I got no probs with him, but any player that figures he wants to head overseas for the guaranteed money (AB contracts include actually being in team) that is up to him. I prefer players that want to fight their way into team myself I said same when Nick Evans etc went) As for if he pissed off because of what idiots say about him on forums etc etc, don't blame him, but you just have to look at the comments on here about players etc from people who just don't really know, and players/coaches/administrators have to be able to ignore it unfortunately. The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv!

Nonsense, I heard him say on tv that he wanted to keep playing for the ABs, but he had no choice so had to go overseas because of the ridiculous pay cut he was offered.

Your ' The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv is a bit of a silly comment - for example you don't just believe anything that any AB coach says, you analyse it for yourself, to see if it makes good sense or not, it's not bloody rocket science... I've said a few things on here about tactics on the rugby threads, so what tactics that I've mentioned don't make sense then ???

Actually never heard the AB coach say anything about him going, where did you see that. I also heard him say he thought he was worth more than NZR were prepared to pay him (as there no big pay rises with Covid cuts), so he was heading overseas, think it was Lendrum? who I saw talking about it on Breakdown. It very similar to Piatau and Luatua, very good players who found more money overseas than playing for ABs, no probs as I said earlier if that's what's important to them, just don't blame anyone else for decision!
Not sure what you talking about with tactics etc? Not sure I actually remember any of your posts. I was suggesting Lumpy shouldn't get upset at people saying things about him etc. You were the one who said he did in earlier post

I saw it on a short interview on Sky... wasn't about him wanting more money, about them wanting to give him a pay cut.

Only joined 4 days ago, which is probably why you haven't seen many of my posts... as I said, you mentioned there's a lot experts on the couch, which sounds like you're saying supporters know stuff all about the game compared to coaches/administration etc, just saying if a coach uses a tactic or says something doesn't mean it's always right, you analyse it for yourself.

Again, don't blame Laumape for what he said, when someone says something about you that's rubbish you have to react to it.

[get stuffed]

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

Yeah, no doubt if you have the right people at the top in any organization consistently making good decisions & hiring the best people available that organization is going to run smoothly from the top all the way through.

I've mentioned before you can't come up with big innovations tactics wise as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments - at one stage Henry came up with an idiotic so called innovated game plan, that he use for 2 or 3 tests, holding onto the ball even if you're only a couple of metres out from your own goal line, hilarious, how did he think that was ever going to work ? one of the golden rules in the game is never stuff around deep in your own danger zone.

[dogmeat]

I thought Robertson had ruled out being an Assistant Coach. It's the top job or nada?

[L_n_P]

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

Yeah, no doubt if you have the right people at the top in any organization consistently making good decisions & hiring the best people available that organization is going to run smoothly from the top all the way through.

I've mentioned before you can't come up with big innovations tactics wise as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments - at one stage Henry came up with an idiotic so called innovated game plan, that he use for 2 or 3 tests, holding onto the ball even if you're only a couple of metres out from your own goal line, hilarious, how did he think that was ever going to work ? one of the golden rules in the game is never stuff around deep in your own danger zone.

Totally (not a structural issue) but a strength of great coaches like Henry, Eddie Jones maybe is an ability to try experimental tactics, risk failures, and learn from it

Not sure if posted here before but I liked this btw!

[L_n_P]

@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

I actually like our coaches going overseas , as I really believe it makes them better coaches, Henry, Hansen etc were I believe better coaches for doing overseas gigs.
Listen to Eddie Jones who says he thinks he learns more off players than they learn off him!

Me too. It's why I'd rather see Joe Schmid or Jamie Joseph as the next AB head coach rather than Scott Robertson next round

I may get flamed on the Fern - but for many reasons including his own development I'd love to see SR coach England after Eddie and return to NZ downstream

[get stuffed]

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:

@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:

Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..

And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.

I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.

He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem

We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.

Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.

Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.

Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.

Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.

How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?

States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."

And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.

It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.

We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.

Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.

"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?

(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)

Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too

Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.

Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.

Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.

The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)

Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exception

Hansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.

Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.

That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.

Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR

All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.

That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.

Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire

The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop

Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures

Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick ) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches too

Just have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?

Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.

Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.

Yeah, can't just blame coaches if at Board level you really hold the ambition level of always being #1 in any global field ...?

I did a over a decade in a company that was normally #1 globally in a major, fast moving industry. Didn't breath the rarified air (or money) at a global CxO level but did work close enough with a few of them to - enough to glimpse some of the the big picture vision and top-down decision-making coming via the Board and CEO top-down

At that level and enviornment it's brutal. Always working ahead on how structures and new direction based on being #1 in a few years. A zero tolerance for signs you're starting to cruise / be complacent. Yes you could definitely screw up big-time once - if they knew you had the goods - but normally a "two strikes and you're out attitude" on delivery

Translating that mentality into NZR Board terms is fun speculation, but best guess -

• Graham Henry would have got a second shot almost no doubt.
• Shag would have been politely asked to move on 2015 with a special exit payout and lots of thanks to ease the way
• Fossie would probably be part of collateral in any senior cull whenever Shag went
• Regardless, no way Fossie would be considered for the top role based on a promotion-from-within i.e. "continuity" and a serious look/headhunt externally

Amazing to be part of, fricken all-consuming though

Yeah, no doubt if you have the right people at the top in any organization consistently making good decisions & hiring the best people available that organization is going to run smoothly from the top all the way through.

I've mentioned before you can't come up with big innovations tactics wise as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments - at one stage Henry came up with an idiotic so called innovated game plan, that he use for 2 or 3 tests, holding onto the ball even if you're only a couple of metres out from your own goal line, hilarious, how did he think that was ever going to work ? one of the golden rules in the game is never stuff around deep in your own danger zone.

Totally (not a structural issue) but a strength of great coaches like Henry, Eddie Jones maybe is an ability to try experimental tactics, risk failures, and learn from it

Not sure if posted here before but I liked this btw!

Never thought Henry was a great coach - he didn't show any insight whatsoever by using such a silly game plan in a test in the first place, yet he used it in 2 or 3 tests in a row ? - as mentioned before you can only make small new adjustments in your game plan or tactics as it's all been done before.
His rotation policy was way over the top too, by consistently changing either a whole team or too many players in every test, if you keep changing too many players every test you're obviously going to lose most of your continuity/cohesion... Hansen in his last year used the same type of rotation policy going into that RWC, which is the main reason we looked so disjointed & disorganized.

[Kiwiwomble]

@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere

[get stuffed]

@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:

@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere

Yeah, he finally learnt - but why try something that was never going to work anyway ? ...Henry had so many great players in his team over those periods, like McCaw, Carter, etc.

[Kiwiwomble]

@kiwibloke i think we didn't really know rotating that much wouldn't work until he tried it, at the time i remember thinking it could be amazing, to have effectively 2 full teams of world class level? wow!..... its easy to look back now and claim to have known all along

thats why im more critical of fozzie, he seems to be trying to do it again but this time we have already seen it fail...and that was with better players

[bobily2]

I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.