All Blacks 2021
-
@arhs said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 All I am saying is that all teams have their ups and downs - including Ireland - and there is a competitive playing field amongst the top 10 or so, where anyone can win or lose on a day, particularly when there are factors affecting the squad. I just don't like to see good coaches and teams absolutely rubbished. Joe Schmidt is very good, and prepares his team very well. But, he was also under the gun too for those bad results. Does not make him a bad coach. Would be nice if NZ can combine the talents of Schmidt, Foster and Robertson in preparing for RWC and what it throws at the squad.
I couldn't agree more , I said I a fan of Schmidt, hell as I have pointed out I real keen on him, Rennie and Joseph to name a few, all I say judge all the coaches the same. Schmidt has become man of moment on forums because he has joined the selection panel, something Foster tried to arrange when he got the gig, but he was not wanting much to do with test rugby, why he said he didn't apply for AB coaching job. Did we have this much screaming for Schmidt last year?
I would feel better about Razor if he was in ABs (or somewhere) getting some International experience. He has said as much himself when he tried to get a gig helping Gatland with Lions, said he felt he could learn a lot. -
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Do you even have a glue how to analsye a player ? ...if you did you'll realize you look at all the skill sets a player has in the position he plays in & see how well they execute those skills sets under pressure... for example Laumape puts defenders in two minds, as you're not sure whether he'll pass, execute a grubber, use his step & pace to beat a player, or power through them.
HaHaHA He was one dimensional end of story.Maybe that's why the ALL Blacks dis regarded him because he was not good enough.
Or maybe the Selectors needed you to analyse the players for them.Just because someone does not agree with you it doesn't mean they know nothing or have an opinion.
Lets not forget Foster didn't want him & we all know how poor he is as a head coach.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, but that opinion should have some insight though.
-
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Do you even have a glue how to analsye a player ? ...if you did you'll realize you look at all the skill sets a player has in the position he plays in & see how well they execute those skills sets under pressure... for example Laumape puts defenders in two minds, as you're not sure whether he'll pass, execute a grubber, use his step & pace to beat a player, or power through them.
HaHaHA He was one dimensional end of story.Maybe that's why the ALL Blacks dis regarded him because he was not good enough.
Or maybe the Selectors needed you to analyse the players for them.Just because someone does not agree with you it doesn't mean they know nothing or have an opinion.
Lets not forget Foster didn't want him & we all know how poor he is as a head coach.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, but that opinion should have some insight though.
That is your opinion again wether it has Insight or not.
You will find on the Fern a few people think the same about Laumape.
As for Foster he is a complete and utter Fuckwit in my books so I do agree with that point.
-
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke at super maybe, he was more often than not found wanting at international level.
He rarely put defences in 2 minds, he would mostly pretty much try to run over the defence
Disagree... also tell me a midfielder we have in the AB squad that puts the opposition in two minds ? they're lucky if they put them in half a mind
-
@kiwibloke if I was marking him, I'd not be in 2 minds, I just have to make sure I was in a position to try and tackle him when he ran it at me, most of the time...
-
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Do you even have a glue how to analsye a player ? ...if you did you'll realize you look at all the skill sets a player has in the position he plays in & see how well they execute those skills sets under pressure... for example Laumape puts defenders in two minds, as you're not sure whether he'll pass, execute a grubber, use his step & pace to beat a player, or power through them.
HaHaHA He was one dimensional end of story.Maybe that's why the ALL Blacks dis regarded him because he was not good enough.
Or maybe the Selectors needed you to analyse the players for them.Just because someone does not agree with you it doesn't mean they know nothing or have an opinion.
Lets not forget Foster didn't want him & we all know how poor he is as a head coach.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, but that opinion should have some insight though.
That is your opinion again wether it has Insight or not.
You will find on the Fern a few people think the same about Laumape.
As for Foster he is a complete and utter Fuckwit in my books so I do agree with that point.
Just saying it's best to analyse in depth.
hiliarious, just pointed out the obvious skill sets he has... not much point continuing the debate, we're just going around in circles.
-
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
Last year we had same thing with Rennie ( another bloody good coach) but seems to have gone a lot quieter now with his international record over a couple of years. And good as he is he has no record of winning to speak of really anyway, just was fashion for a year or 2.
That's just silly, especially in light of your comments in the preceding paragraphs. He had a 6 year period when he won 3 U20s and 2 S14s. He then kept the Chiefs in the finals hunt for the remainder of his time. At no stage did he ever have a squad as strong as the ones Razor has had.
Arguably his most successful coaching was keeping the Poo reasonably competitive for as long as he did.
Mate I was using it as an example of how you can cherry pick results to make argument. I actually a fan of Rennie, had whanau in his rep squad,
Ah right, I guess I misread your intention of that part. All good.
-
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Do you even have a glue how to analsye a player ? ...if you did you'll realize you look at all the skill sets a player has in the position he plays in & see how well they execute those skills sets under pressure... for example Laumape puts defenders in two minds, as you're not sure whether he'll pass, execute a grubber, use his step & pace to beat a player, or power through them.
HaHaHA He was one dimensional end of story.Maybe that's why the ALL Blacks dis regarded him because he was not good enough.
Or maybe the Selectors needed you to analyse the players for them.Just because someone does not agree with you it doesn't mean they know nothing or have an opinion.
Lets not forget Foster didn't want him & we all know how poor he is as a head coach.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, but that opinion should have some insight though.
That is your opinion again wether it has Insight or not.
You will find on the Fern a few people think the same about Laumape.
As for Foster he is a complete and utter Fuckwit in my books so I do agree with that point.
Just saying it's best to analyse in depth.
hiliarious, just pointed out the obvious skill sets he has... not much point continuing the debate, we're just going around in circles.
Its all good we have different opinions, that what the Fern is all about.
Many a blow up has happened on here over opinions.
-
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Do you even have a glue how to analsye a player ? ...if you did you'll realize you look at all the skill sets a player has in the position he plays in & see how well they execute those skills sets under pressure... for example Laumape puts defenders in two minds, as you're not sure whether he'll pass, execute a grubber, use his step & pace to beat a player, or power through them.
HaHaHA He was one dimensional end of story.Maybe that's why the ALL Blacks dis regarded him because he was not good enough.
Or maybe the Selectors needed you to analyse the players for them.Just because someone does not agree with you it doesn't mean they know nothing or have an opinion.
Lets not forget Foster didn't want him & we all know how poor he is as a head coach.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, but that opinion should have some insight though.
That is your opinion again wether it has Insight or not.
You will find on the Fern a few people think the same about Laumape.
As for Foster he is a complete and utter Fuckwit in my books so I do agree with that point.
Just saying it's best to analyse in depth.
hiliarious, just pointed out the obvious skill sets he has... not much point continuing the debate, we're just going around in circles.
Its all good we have different opinions, that what the Fern is all about.
Many a blow up has happened on here over opinions.
Fair points mate.
-
@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:
Laumape actually had more try assists than I might've expected last year.
I wrote a script to collect a few years of Super Rugby data. This is the combined info from last year (includes Trans- Ta$man and Aotearoa).
First Turnovers column is "TurnoversConceded", second is "TurnoversWon"
-
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.
I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.
You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season
I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas! -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.
I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.
You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season
I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas!Yep I feel the same way mate.
-
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.
I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.
You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season
I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas!He had a fair point, some people were saying a fair bit of nonsense about him, so can't blame him for getting a bit peeved off - of course he was basically dropped, would you take a big pay cut from your job & still stay there ? of course you wouldn't, nor would anyone esle... so after that crap he was always going to leave & go overseas to play.
-
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exceptionHansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.
Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.
That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR
All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.
Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire
The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop
Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures
Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick
) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches tooJust have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?
-
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.
I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.
You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season
I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas!He had a fair point, some people were saying a fair bit of nonsense about him, so can't blame him for getting a bit peeved off - of course he was basically dropped, would you take a big pay cut from your job & still stay there ? of course you wouldn't, nor would anyone esle... so after that crap he was always going to leave & go overseas to play.
I don't think he was dropped, just NZR weren't prepared to get into bidding war from everything I read, and don't think it was a big pay cut. I got no probs with him, but any player that figures he wants to head overseas for the guaranteed money (AB contracts include actually being in team) that is up to him. I prefer players that want to fight their way into team myself I said same when Nick Evans etc went) As for if he pissed off because of what idiots say about him on forums etc etc, don't blame him, but you just have to look at the comments on here about players etc from people who just don't really know, and players/coaches/administrators have to be able to ignore it unfortunately. The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv!
-
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exceptionHansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.
Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.
That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR
All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.
Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire
The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop
Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures
Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick
) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches tooJust have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?
I actually like our coaches going overseas , as I really believe it makes them better coaches, Henry, Hansen etc were I believe better coaches for doing overseas gigs.
Listen to Eddie Jones who says he thinks he learns more off players than they learn off him! -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much...
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape
You talk about a mid field using brains and then promote Laumape for the mid field?
Dont agree that he read the game well at all.
Laumape Pretty one dimensional and not at the top of the tree for decision making,agree with you there.
What ? just because he has brutal power doesn't mean he's one-dimensional - have you ever seen him play ? ...he's got a good weighted short kicking game & passes at the right times, how's that not reading the game properly ?
All the midfield players Foster has selected have basically offered nothing, the midfield is one of the real weaknesses in the ABs at the moment.You are not going to convince me on Laumape,Best thing he has left for Europe.
Now that is just silly. David Havilli was by the end of the season nearly a flop at 12, but it's better for NZ rugby if doesn't leave for Europe.
I'm not on the Laumape train but he played some decent tests.
You may see it that way ,I don't rate Laumape and thought his petulant behaviour was BS in his last season
I must admit I lost a bit of respect for Lumpy with his rant after a good game where he was going on about how he wanted to show people who he thought had disrespected him, so he put on a dominant display. Sorry but you shouldn't need bad press to get you to play well, and generally last season for Canes he was generally average.
As for Foster not wanting him, he hadn't been dropped, just didn't get as much money from NZR as he wanted, not sure where the 'he wasn't wanted' came from.
I remember the same shit being said when Luatua went overseas!He had a fair point, some people were saying a fair bit of nonsense about him, so can't blame him for getting a bit peeved off - of course he was basically dropped, would you take a big pay cut from your job & still stay there ? of course you wouldn't, nor would anyone esle... so after that crap he was always going to leave & go overseas to play.
I don't think he was dropped, just NZR weren't prepared to get into bidding war from everything I read, and don't think it was a big pay cut. I got no probs with him, but any player that figures he wants to head overseas for the guaranteed money (AB contracts include actually being in team) that is up to him. I prefer players that want to fight their way into team myself I said same when Nick Evans etc went) As for if he pissed off because of what idiots say about him on forums etc etc, don't blame him, but you just have to look at the comments on here about players etc from people who just don't really know, and players/coaches/administrators have to be able to ignore it unfortunately. The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv!
Nonsense, I heard him say on tv that he wanted to keep playing for the ABs, but he had no choice so had to go overseas because of the ridiculous pay cut he was offered.
Your ' The world is full of experts at home on their couch watching tv is a bit of a silly comment - for example you don't just believe anything that any AB coach says, you analyse it for yourself, to see if it makes good sense or not, it's not bloody rocket science... I've said a few things on here about tactics on the rugby threads, so what tactics that I've mentioned don't make sense then ???
-
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, I remember a video segment from RNZ where he mentions his desire to quote 'show that he is 'innovative'..
And to be fair to him... being the first AB coach to lose to Argentina, was a ground-breaking achievement for Foz.
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
He correctly identified the issue, then failed completely to bring along/select the right players to address the problem
We have played powder puff (copyright Walrus) rugby all year.
Go to 55 seconds, he pretty much addresses this, and even gets pressed further by Campbell about it.
Mortifying to watch now after what's since transpired under Fozzie, he hasn't fulfilled these points to any degree.
Watching this right now it's apparent he's completely & utterly out of his depth as an international coach & is simply clueless with regards to the best course of action that should be required for this team going forward.
Just words alone cannot describe the inadequacy on display here.
How is this level of incompetence acceptable for the NZR?
States the obvious; "we got smacked against England, what have we learnt from that?" and then proceeds to vomit HR twaddle about "freshening an organisation, how we deliver messages, the people that we use to deliver messages, grow our leaders, grow our mental skills, culture, younger group of players coming through from different backgrounds that we need to take into account and figure out how we link and communicate with them."
And some people still wonder why we've seen no development in how we play in over two years? He's not helped by the snivelling shit of an interviewer, but if that was the brief to the NZR selection committee, small wonder the game is in the parlous state it is. From the top down the organisation is being replaced with mediocrity and as they permeate through it becomes harder to identify them.
It all starts at the top, because we have idiots on the NZRU Board we end up with an incompetent coach - even though we won The Rugby Championship you could see the cracks appearing... on the UK tour we lost really badly against Ireland, didn't learn from those obvious mistakes, so lost the same pathetic way against France too.
We are not even doing the basics in the forwards when we have possession, there's a real lack of mongrel/urgency taking the ball up, also we're not getting enough numbers to clean, blowing their players out the way so we can get quicker ball to our backs.
Foster's tactic to use box kicks to counter the rushing defence is pathetic... when the opposition are really slowing your ball down you need to kick, but is has to be smart kicking, like wipers kicks deep towards the sideline or corners, get them scrambling back, because the opposition are standing up so flat with this rugby league type defence there's going to be acres of space behind them.
"It all starts at the top". Is it just me who feels that SuperRugby for all it's intensity in the NZ derbies, no longer prepares teams for an elite international defensive structure?
(There's a great 1014 interview on Youtube with Scott Robertson and Ronan O'Gara where Scott admits that ROG really challenged his own ideas on defense ... just a good example)
Regaining a coaching innovation edge is only part of the problem, I suspect some some structural issues and complacency are underpinning this too
Spot on mate - it's not just a problem with Super Rugby, but in world rugby too.
Heaps of times in games we see a ton of aimless kicking, deep down the middle of the field directly to a player, that's just giving good possession away, also those bloody box kicks are way overdone, need to vary your tactics accurately.
Players tend to grubber kick directly into the legs of an opposition player & don't get the weight on the ball right either, if they had any sense they'd look to guide the ball along the deck between the other sides players.
Really annoys me when dumb intercept tries are given away & silly passes in general are thrown to gift the opposition the ball, also charge downs from kicks - christ, these blokes are meant to be professionals ? ...these things would hardly ever happen if each player bothered to read the game properly & have a quick look for a split second to see if a kick or pass was on or not, clearly if it isn't go to ground & set the ball up.The joy of watching the ABs has always been that fantasic philosophy that a great attack can outwit a great defense "somehow" ... tactics and skills and speed (fitness can no longer be a point of difference)
Given this, what gets me is that NZ tactical innovation seems to have stalled vs modern defenses ... yet SR is the only experience route to prepare up-and-coming / fringe ABs, so I see it as a structural issue, not just a pure AB-level coaching issue ... how to best use SR teams/coaches to prepare the future ABs (who pay all the bills)
And assume that Sean Edwards-style defenses need to be a new defensive benchmark they'll face more and more, not the exceptionHansen was a good coach, but not a great one, he didn't have much insight how to counter a rushing defence either, that showed in the Lions series in NZ - Foster is a complete clown though, so all he's going do is continue to ruin the team, Schmidt has a good rugby brain, hope Foster takes a lot of advice from him, because he desperately needs it.
Against a rushing defence there's really only two options, taking the ball up in phases when you have some momentum going forward - when the opposition really slow your ball down it's pointless to continue to run into a brick wall... so adjust to execute a smart accurate kicking game, wiper kicks into space deep into the corners, grubbers weighted into space etc.
That's a really dumb tactic the AB coaching staff have against a rushing by executing a lot of box kicks/up & unders - with those type of kicks you have less than a 50/50 chance of getting the possession back, also the ball only travels about 30 metres up field.
The players have to take some blame as well, they're the ones playing on the field... our playmakers 9 & 10 should be reading play far better, by consistently taking good options & executing them accurately.Just that imo future AB playmakers 9, 10, maybe 12 need to playing against more aggressive rush defenses at SR level consistently to learn to deal with it at the next level down ... how to achieve that is a structural and coaching issue for NZR
All the other comps around the world are no more aggressive rushing defence wise than in the Super Rugby Comp - yeah, part of it is about a coaching & structural issue - the majority of it though is about 9, 10 & the midfield not using that thing between their ears called a brain very much... like any bloody sport it's about reading the situation at the time, then taking the best option, not difficult to analsye.
That womble Foster made a big stuff up by not wanting Laumape - we lack that intimidating midfield power runner that can consistently get us over the advantage line... Laumape also had good all-round skills sets, plenty of gas & reads play well.
Totally, and NZ aims to be #1 ALL the time ... it's bl**dy hard to keep that edge long-term, you need to be very forward looking, look at talent management across the board, pay the $$$ for the current and future stars and be absolutely ruthless when to cull/fire
The depth of kiwi coaching worldwide is unbelievable right? Just that GREAT coaching talent (judging by later success) moves on from SR to develop
Whereas even GOOD-ish ABs get paid pretty decent money by international standards, plus get sabaticals overseas for a year or two to keep that talent stream within NZR structures
Probably I'm a bit "blue-sky thinking" / idealistic / talking bollocks (take your pick
) ... but maybe with Silverlake money NZR could take a real hard/proactive look at how to retain the best SR coaching talent onshore - for example by closing the international pay gaps, look at international sabatical/exchange arrangements for coaches tooJust have a personal feeling that because of that overall 2008-2016 AB domination, Henry-Smith-Hansen wonder-team etc that NZR have become a bit complacement on the role of coaching talent / pathways in keeping that competitive edge needed for an "always #1" ambition level. Should Shag have been allowed to stay on 2 years 2016-2017, was the lack of (real) coaching team competition after 2019 RWC just some top-down symptoms of it all being a bit "chummy" in NZR etc?
Yeah, pretty difficult to keep an edge over a long period time in all areas of the game - that all starts by having the right people on the NZRU Board, then they select the right coaches etc... tactics wise on the field no one is going to come up with big innovations in the game as it's all been done before, can only make slight adjustments for a new tactic & play intelligent rugby.
Hansen stayed on too long, in the last year or so of his coaching he kept making too many changes every test leading up to that RWC - so when we played in the tournament we lacked cohesion & direction... so it's unbelievable that the NZRU twats thought it was a great idea to basically put the same coaching staff back in again.
-
@kiwibloke Yeah, I agree and see your angle, but he had a lot more of a role to play at domestic level and the intensity of Super Rugby is miles down on test level, where there is a lot less focus on the defensive side of the game, hence why you see Laumape hugging the touchline, popping up at first receiver and showing more of short kicking game, and lets not forget, last season he and Jordie Barrett were the only big names in the backline, hence the need for him to offer more in attack.
We never really saw this from him at test level however as his lack of size would see him get monstered by bigger defences at the highest level with his power game that he loved, similar to Sam Tuitupou of years gone by, and there's less room to move for him at the highest level due to a higher focus on the defensive side of the game as well as the darker arts.
So yes, he was more effective at domestic level with more time and room to move, but ineffective at the highest level with defences quickly up in his face, nulifying his power running to go with his small stature.
