The GOAT
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@MiketheSnow said in The GOAT:
Sir Steve Redgrave was exceptional - athletic & mental ability, longevity, success - but his pyramid of excellence in rowing compared with Jordan's pyramid in basketball is akin to a piece of Toblerone compared with the Great Pyramid of Giza .
I have to say you've kinda lost me here.
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@No-Quarter said in The GOAT:
We're too humble as Kiwis. McCaw is right in the conversation for GOAT athlete. Absolutely amazing record as a player and as a captain including the pinnacle of back to back World Cups among countless other trophies. Mentally tougher or as tough as anyone to play any sport anywhere. Always led from the front and made any team he played for nigh on impossible to beat.
Honestly I doubt the guy is 100% human, he was absolutely relentless and was probably the most important factor in our incredible success over the period he was captain. We will never be as dominant as we were under his captaincy ever again, a fact we are starting to come to terms with now after a decade of absolute domination. We just don't have the resources to be that far ahead of the pack in the professional era lest we get another McCaw.
Yes he had fine players around him but you throw him in any team and they suddenly become 10x harder to beat.
I'm also still gutted Lomu was so unwell for most of his career. He was one of a kind.
None of the other alleged GOATs ever won a World Cup with a broken foot to my knowledge. Richie McCaw it is.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The GOAT:
Surely there must be one game in his 156 year career in which Tom Brady faced a dominant defence. Please find that game, analyse it and fuck off back to the NFL thread please.
I had debated moving it, but I think the debate here has merit as I don't think from this discussion (and I could well be wrong) that any of Voodoo, KiwiMurph, CaneFan or Baron-in-disguise think Brady is worth the hype that he's getting out of the Super Bowl. When it stayed on topic, the debate is about whether Brady would have done something different to Mahomes. Of which there are two sides, and I'm the only one on one of them ... And my argument is that if he's truly the GOAT then he would have. Doesn't mean it would have worked of course.
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Anyways ...
... another to add to the conversation: Jim Thorpe.
2 x Olympic Gold medals, winning BOTH the decathlon and pentathlon.
Played pro and college football (his major sporting career, Hall of Fame in both), professional baseball (6 seasons of Major League) and basketball.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The GOAT:
@MiketheSnow said in The GOAT:
Sir Steve Redgrave was exceptional - athletic & mental ability, longevity, success - but his pyramid of excellence in rowing compared with Jordan's pyramid in basketball is akin to a piece of Toblerone compared with the Great Pyramid of Giza .
I have to say you've kinda lost me here.
Pyramid represents the number of people worldwide who play that sport.
The peak of the pyramid represents athletes like Redgrave and MJ.
The pyramids differ massively in size and talent pool.
It's easier to sit atop a piece of Toblerone.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
... think Brady is worth the hype that he's getting out of the Super Bowl.
He converted me. Hasn't been a great on-field quarterback for ages, but goddamn he is efficient and emotionless. To get out of being coached by one of the all time greats, and go to another franchise (albeit stacked), win away three times (even with Covid crowds), and then win a superbowl is just at freak level.
I still don't like him, but that win lifts him to the winningest greatest NFL player of all time. Probably not the best (Rodgers, Mahomes have more talent), but his results speak for themselves.
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Just to clarify my own position, I absolutely have Brady in the GOAT conversation for both NFL and the all-sports award. I think I said that in an earlier post.
I had him there or close before this game, though he cemented the spot with this win. Not so much his performance in this game, which was definitely good, but what he did with that team over the season. Its really hard to go somewhere new and fit in and deliver straight away . Personalities, coaching styles, trust in team mates, all makes it hard. To get it done like this is a massive achievement.
As for the game itself, I hold the view that Mahomes would have been just as effective against that D line especially with Gronk to aim for. And I think Brady would have really struggled to deliver with that Chiefs O line wilting in front of him.
We will never know obviously, but it doesn't detract from Brady being an absolute legend.
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Ah, right.
So Volleyball's Karch Kiraly would rank way, way above MJ as twice as many people play volleyball as Basketball?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The GOAT:
Ah, right.
So Volleyball's Karch Kiraly would rank way, way above MJ as twice as many people play volleyball as Basketball?
Much as it pains me to say based on that logic the GOAT would have to be a Footballer then.
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Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain?
Is that a serious question???
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Man I hate that I've never heard of some of the legendary names being thrown out here
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
cough Kyle Jamieson cough
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain?
Is that a serious question???
Yeah - the problem is they didn't get to compete against each other, but Wilt Chamberlain dominated the sport when he played.
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Man I hate that I've never heard of some of the legendary names being thrown out here
Google Mike Hailwood.
Apart with being one of the top 1-2 motorcycle racers ever, he won the George Medal for rescuing Clay Regazonni from a burning F1 car. When his overalls caught fire, he got a marshall to put them out with a fire extinguisher and went straight back to the burring car...
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@delicatessen said in The GOAT:
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Someone mentioned he didn’t bowl which is possibly a fair call.....but an all rounder would need a sub 25 bowling average and a 50 plus batting average to even warrant a comparison in my opinion.
No one has really come close to that, ever.
Perhaps a specialist bowler would need a substantial career averaging under 15 or even 10 ?
cough Kyle Jamieson cough
Must be something in the name.....Kyle Mayers will be keen to try and maintain his career batting average of 250
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@mariner4life and Neon Deion even had a pretty sweet Nike shoe line too!
To me NFL is similar to rugby - a game for all shapes and sizes and the ultimate in team sports despite the added pressure in certain positions (QB, halfback, 1st 5).
I agree with most that Brady is brilliant but having watched his whole career you know a lot of things had to go right around him for him to shine. This is similar to MJ when he was winning championships.
The thing with MJ though is how dominant he was earlier in his career when he had next to no help and yet in a 20+ team league was still able to get deep into the playoffs.
McCaw is in that class too because even though we weren’t winning world cups early in his career we were winning other stuff and McCaw was a standout and my biased view, he could’ve won more World player of the year awards. Yes he had Carter and others but he still stood out in a team game.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The GOAT:
@mariner4life and Neon Deion even had a pretty sweet Nike shoe line too!
To me NFL is similar to rugby - a game for all shapes and sizes and the ultimate in team sports despite the added pressure in certain positions (QB, halfback, 1st 5).
I agree with most that Brady is brilliant but having watched his whole career you know a lot of things had to go right around him for him to shine. This is similar to MJ when he was winning championships.
The thing with MJ though is how dominant he was earlier in his career when he had next to no help and yet in a 20+ team league was still able to get deep into the playoffs.
McCaw is in that class too because even though we weren’t winning world cups early in his career we were winning other stuff and McCaw was a standout and my biased view, he could’ve won more World player of the year awards. Yes he had Carter and others but he still stood out in a team game.
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