The GOAT
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
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Also, I've said may times I consider Richie a great AB but MJ a better player. I'd still take MJ for my 15.
Look I'm as big a MJ fan as anyone but know way he is in my 15. Phenomenal athlete but check out how he went when he tried baseball. You expect him to come to rugby and push McCaw out of his throne....
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@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
Yeah, and that's where we disagree. We'll never know whose right/wrong but I would argue that Brady would ensure all the plays are based on quick distribution and set training moves. How many times did Mahomes take 3 steps back and set then look for runners. Something that had proven to be suicidal time and time again. I would argue that Brady's additional experience means he would have evaluated things differently and got his team to do something different.
Surely there is nobody better positioned to see exactly what is going wrong / right and where things can be exploited than the QB.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
Yeah, and that's where we disagree. We'll never know whose right/wrong but I would argue that Brady would ensure all the plays are based on quick distribution and set training moves. How many times did Mahomes take 3 steps back and set then look for runners. Something that had proven to be suicidal time and time again. I would argue that Brady's additional experience means he would have evaluated things differently and got his team to do something different.
Surely there is nobody better positioned to see exactly what is going wrong / right and where things can be exploited than the QB.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Mahomes was chased all night, and yet he threw two passes to his receivers in the end zone, only for both of them to do such a poor job of catching that they were hit in the facemask by the ball!! One of them Mahomes was diving horizontally to his side. It is no different to union, a 9 and 10 generally look as good as their forward pack allow them to look.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage Essentially yes that Mahomes could overcome it.
Mahomes had never lost a game by double digits in his NFL career. He had never not scored a touchdown in NFL or college game.
A lot of the casual money/odds was on Chiefs but there was a lot of talk prior to the game about how Bucs matched up very well.
The Chiefs weaknesses were hidden in the AFC Championship Game because the Bills defense simply wasn't that good - the only way they could beat the Chiefs is in a shootout which Chiefs are simply better at.
Cleveland Browns had a far better defense than the Bills and subsequently caused the Chiefs a lot more problems and should have won but blew it.
Thanks, good points. I still argue though the point is similar. That is Mahomes is that good he should have been able to at least look for a way around it, where as I didn't see that at all. I argue that Brady would have at least tried something - as you'd expect from a GOAT.
Anyway, it's all hearsay -neither of do and will ever know.
The counter argument to that is that Mahomes mobility actually saved him from a far worse beating - he only ended up taking 3 sacks I think. It could have got seriously ugly with a non-mobile 43 year old Brady behind that line.
Yeah, and that's where we disagree. We'll never know whose right/wrong but I would argue that Brady would ensure all the plays are based on quick distribution and set training moves. How many times did Mahomes take 3 steps back and set then look for runners. Something that had proven to be suicidal time and time again. I would argue that Brady's additional experience means he would have evaluated things differently and got his team to do something different.
Surely there is nobody better positioned to see exactly what is going wrong / right and where things can be exploited than the QB.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Mahomes was chased all night, and yet he threw two passes to his receivers in the end zone, only for both of them to do such a poor job of catching that they were hit in the facemask by the ball!! One of them Mahomes was diving horizontally to his side. It is no different to union, a 9 and 10 generally look as good as their forward pack allow them to look.
Fair enough. They certainly were spectacular plays if they had come off & lend weight to the arguments above about the spectacular ability of Mahomes. It's whether this high-risk tactic was the right thing to do given the situation. Happy to A to DA.
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@MajorRage That's easier said than done. That Tampa defense had elite playmakers all over the field, Barrett and Pierre Paul on the edges, Vaea and Suh in the middle, the fastest young middle linebacker in the league to cover Kelce and a solid secondary that was healthy (unlike in the NFC title game). Not to mention Bowles pulling the strings as D Coordinator.
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Surely there must be one game in his 156 year career in which Tom Brady faced a dominant defence. Please find that game, analyse it and fuck off back to the NFL thread please.
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@MiketheSnow said in The GOAT:
Sir Steve Redgrave was exceptional - athletic & mental ability, longevity, success - but his pyramid of excellence in rowing compared with Jordan's pyramid in basketball is akin to a piece of Toblerone compared with the Great Pyramid of Giza .
I have to say you've kinda lost me here.
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@No-Quarter said in The GOAT:
We're too humble as Kiwis. McCaw is right in the conversation for GOAT athlete. Absolutely amazing record as a player and as a captain including the pinnacle of back to back World Cups among countless other trophies. Mentally tougher or as tough as anyone to play any sport anywhere. Always led from the front and made any team he played for nigh on impossible to beat.
Honestly I doubt the guy is 100% human, he was absolutely relentless and was probably the most important factor in our incredible success over the period he was captain. We will never be as dominant as we were under his captaincy ever again, a fact we are starting to come to terms with now after a decade of absolute domination. We just don't have the resources to be that far ahead of the pack in the professional era lest we get another McCaw.
Yes he had fine players around him but you throw him in any team and they suddenly become 10x harder to beat.
I'm also still gutted Lomu was so unwell for most of his career. He was one of a kind.
None of the other alleged GOATs ever won a World Cup with a broken foot to my knowledge. Richie McCaw it is.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The GOAT:
Surely there must be one game in his 156 year career in which Tom Brady faced a dominant defence. Please find that game, analyse it and fuck off back to the NFL thread please.
I had debated moving it, but I think the debate here has merit as I don't think from this discussion (and I could well be wrong) that any of Voodoo, KiwiMurph, CaneFan or Baron-in-disguise think Brady is worth the hype that he's getting out of the Super Bowl. When it stayed on topic, the debate is about whether Brady would have done something different to Mahomes. Of which there are two sides, and I'm the only one on one of them ... And my argument is that if he's truly the GOAT then he would have. Doesn't mean it would have worked of course.
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Anyways ...
... another to add to the conversation: Jim Thorpe.
2 x Olympic Gold medals, winning BOTH the decathlon and pentathlon.
Played pro and college football (his major sporting career, Hall of Fame in both), professional baseball (6 seasons of Major League) and basketball.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The GOAT:
@MiketheSnow said in The GOAT:
Sir Steve Redgrave was exceptional - athletic & mental ability, longevity, success - but his pyramid of excellence in rowing compared with Jordan's pyramid in basketball is akin to a piece of Toblerone compared with the Great Pyramid of Giza .
I have to say you've kinda lost me here.
Pyramid represents the number of people worldwide who play that sport.
The peak of the pyramid represents athletes like Redgrave and MJ.
The pyramids differ massively in size and talent pool.
It's easier to sit atop a piece of Toblerone.
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@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
... think Brady is worth the hype that he's getting out of the Super Bowl.
He converted me. Hasn't been a great on-field quarterback for ages, but goddamn he is efficient and emotionless. To get out of being coached by one of the all time greats, and go to another franchise (albeit stacked), win away three times (even with Covid crowds), and then win a superbowl is just at freak level.
I still don't like him, but that win lifts him to the winningest greatest NFL player of all time. Probably not the best (Rodgers, Mahomes have more talent), but his results speak for themselves.
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Just to clarify my own position, I absolutely have Brady in the GOAT conversation for both NFL and the all-sports award. I think I said that in an earlier post.
I had him there or close before this game, though he cemented the spot with this win. Not so much his performance in this game, which was definitely good, but what he did with that team over the season. Its really hard to go somewhere new and fit in and deliver straight away . Personalities, coaching styles, trust in team mates, all makes it hard. To get it done like this is a massive achievement.
As for the game itself, I hold the view that Mahomes would have been just as effective against that D line especially with Gronk to aim for. And I think Brady would have really struggled to deliver with that Chiefs O line wilting in front of him.
We will never know obviously, but it doesn't detract from Brady being an absolute legend.
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Ah, right.
So Volleyball's Karch Kiraly would rank way, way above MJ as twice as many people play volleyball as Basketball?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The GOAT:
Ah, right.
So Volleyball's Karch Kiraly would rank way, way above MJ as twice as many people play volleyball as Basketball?
Much as it pains me to say based on that logic the GOAT would have to be a Footballer then.
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Edwin Moses has to be in the conversation for athletes. Two Olympic gold medals, 4 world records, and he won 107 consecutive finals in the 400 m hurdles. That last feat is amazing.
Agreed. In terms of dominance it's those types of individuals (Bradman, Moses, Redgrave, Merckz etc.) who need to be foremost in discussion of "greatest of all time" - people who commit feats unlikely to be replicated. That being said, even dominance alone isn't enough, otherwise we'd be cheering Alan Francis.
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain? Marciano over Ali/ Foreman/ Louis? Pele vs Ronaldo/ Messi?
Brady has to be the GOAT for NFL given his amazing longevity and winning percentage. I still place Richie above Brady because of Richie's achievements in a position incomparable in terms of physical punishment on the body.
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
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@antipodean said in The GOAT:
Would you go Jordan over Chamberlain?
Is that a serious question???
@antipodean said in The GOAT:
For women it's hard to go past the level of dominance Heather McKay, who was so good even Jahangir Khan didn't match her. Lost only two matches in her entire career (in 1960 and 1962), and was unbeaten in competitive squash matches from 1962 through to 1981. That's owning a sport.
Man I hate that I've never heard of some of the legendary names being thrown out here
