The GOAT
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
I'll say Mahomes is better QB than TB right now. Switch teams and the score is far worse. No taking away from TB because he was great. But let's not get crazy
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
Brady didn't have to. Seen this?
Brady goes into the game with the tactic to play quick ball which takes the defensive line, to an extent, out of the game. Mahomes goes into it with his uber laid back confident "play what's in front of me" style, and Tampa had clearly worked it out. And what did Mahomes do when it was clear and he needed to change? Nothing.
@MajorRage Brady was given protection (therefore time) from his offensive line whereas Mahomes was always scrambling. Brady would have looked even worse as he isn't mobile.
See above graphic. Brady played to get rid of the ball ASAP. Mahomes didn't. It was a tactic. When you are 43, you'd have to be an idiot to think you could play a mobile game plan and and get away with it.
@voodoo said in The GOAT:
I'll say Mahomes is better QB than TB right now. Switch teams and the score is far worse. No taking away from TB because he was great. But let's not get crazyThis is Kirwan / Akira sort of myopia. Being better isn't just about being the better runner, better passer etc. It's also about being better tactically. Calling and executing the plays against what is in front of you. Brady nailed it. Mahomes melted down.
The superbowl was a genuine Mehrtens vs Carlos moment. Nobody argues Mahomes as a better box of tricks at the moment, but he didn't have a clue how to use them against a defence which had clearly worked his offence out.
-
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
Babe Didrikson Zaharias!
Olympic gold in hurdles and javelin and a silver in the high jump - and 10 LPGA golf wins. As well as being a gun at basketball, baseball and others.
Female Bo Jackson!
Edit: Still holds the record for the longest throw of a baseball by a woman.
-
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
And I'm talking about a parallel. The comparison is valid.
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
Brady didn't have to. Seen this?
Brady goes into the game with the tactic to play quick ball which takes the defensive line, to an extent, out of the game. Mahomes goes into it with his uber laid back confident "play what's in front of me" style, and Tampa had clearly worked it out. And what did Mahomes do when it was clear and he needed to change? Nothing.
@MajorRage Brady was given protection (therefore time) from his offensive line whereas Mahomes was always scrambling. Brady would have looked even worse as he isn't mobile.
See above graphic. Brady played to get rid of the ball ASAP. Mahomes didn't. It was a tactic. When you are 43, you'd have to be an idiot to think you could play a mobile game plan and and get away with it.
@voodoo said in The GOAT:
I'll say Mahomes is better QB than TB right now. Switch teams and the score is far worse. No taking away from TB because he was great. But let's not get crazyThis is Kirwan / Akira sort of myopia. Being better isn't just about being the better runner, better passer etc. It's also about being better tactically. Calling and executing the plays against what is in front of you. Brady nailed it. Mahomes melted down.
The superbowl was a genuine Mehrtens vs Carlos moment. Nobody argues Mahomes as a better box of tricks at the moment, but he didn't have a clue how to use them against a defence which had clearly worked his offence out.
You're on your own here mate. The fact that Mahomes ran more distance doesn't back up your argument about speed of getting the ball away at all. The fact that Brady could chill in the pocket is testament to his offensive line. Mahomes did not get that luxury.
This game was not Mehrts v Los, it was a Crusaders pack v the Canes. And I'm a fucking Canes supporter.
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
The difference between bball and football is that MJ can't be kept out of the game. While he can't do everything himself, you can't stop him taking 25 shots per game and you can't stop him guarding your best player. Contrast that to yesterday, and Brady is only playing half the game, and it was the Bucs defense that won the game for them. Swap Brady for Mahomes yesterday, and the result is undoubtedly the same, and probably by the same margin. You can't say that when you swap MJ for Karl Malone!
I call bullshit on that. NFL is so tactical, and Brady played tactics to win the game & take the Chiefs defence out of the game. Mahomes needed to switch things up at the end of the first half, and simply didn't. On another day he may have, yesterday, he didn't. How many times did he call a play which Tampa read and find himself running backwards / sideways away from defence then throwing a hail mary pass?
The GOAT must not only be somebody physically superior than their peers but also tactically and mentally superior as well. Reality is that their are probably only 3-4 athletes in history who could genuinely be argued they had that. Ronaldo is one, Federer is another & Bolt perhaps as well (are there tactics in sprinting)?
Which is also why if we are talking sportswoman, it's tough to go past Serena Williams.
You blaming Mahomes' play calling on his offensive line getting run over time and time again??? What about the scrambling runs he put in to get 1st downs when there were no passing options available? Brady sure as fuck wasn't making those.
I'm not saying Mahomes is better than Brady, I'm saying with the relative performances of the Bucs defensive line and the Chiefs offensive line, it just would not have mattered.
Brady didn't have to. Seen this?
Brady goes into the game with the tactic to play quick ball which takes the defensive line, to an extent, out of the game. Mahomes goes into it with his uber laid back confident "play what's in front of me" style, and Tampa had clearly worked it out. And what did Mahomes do when it was clear and he needed to change? Nothing.
@MajorRage Brady was given protection (therefore time) from his offensive line whereas Mahomes was always scrambling. Brady would have looked even worse as he isn't mobile.
See above graphic. Brady played to get rid of the ball ASAP. Mahomes didn't. It was a tactic. When you are 43, you'd have to be an idiot to think you could play a mobile game plan and and get away with it.
@voodoo said in The GOAT:
I'll say Mahomes is better QB than TB right now. Switch teams and the score is far worse. No taking away from TB because he was great. But let's not get crazyThis is Kirwan / Akira sort of myopia. Being better isn't just about being the better runner, better passer etc. It's also about being better tactically. Calling and executing the plays against what is in front of you. Brady nailed it. Mahomes melted down.
The superbowl was a genuine Mehrtens vs Carlos moment. Nobody argues Mahomes as a better box of tricks at the moment, but he didn't have a clue how to use them against a defence which had clearly worked his offence out.
You're on your own here mate. The fact that Mahomes ran more distance doesn't back up your argument about speed of getting the ball away at all. The fact that Brady could chill in the pocket is testament to his offensive line. Mahomes did not get that luxury.
This game was not Mehrts v Los, it was a Crusaders pack v the Canes. And I'm a fucking Canes supporter.
Mahomes ran more distance backwards, I'll certainly give you that. Happy to be on my own. Brady's team won and this thread, the GOAT, was started on the back of it.
-
@Number-10 said in The GOAT:
Joe Davis
Entered 15 World Snooker Championships, won all 15.
And the second best player of his time was... Fred Davis his brother. But snooker is a game, not a sport.
-
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I don't think you quite appreciate the difference in offensive line play between the two teams.
I don't think you quite appreciate that when your tactics are under pressure and not working that perhaps you should change them. See RWC QF 2007.
My view, is that if the roles were reversed, Brady would have come off, shouted in the coaches ear about what they needed to change (as he does have the best view of what's going wrong) and over the half time worked hard on new tactics to try etc. That is what the GOAT does.
Whereas it looked to me, that they changed nothing and just expected Mahomes natural ability as the GOAT in waiting to get them out of it. Which he categorically absolutely failed to do.
The Crusaders / Canes pack comparison is garbage. 14-2 regular season shows that KC were the Crusaders.
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I don't think you quite appreciate the difference in offensive line play between the two teams.
I don't think you quite appreciate that when your tactics are under pressure and not working that perhaps you should change them. See RWC QF 2007.
My view, is that if the roles were reversed, Brady would have come off, shouted in the coaches ear about what they needed to change (as he does have the best view of what's going wrong) and over the half time worked hard on new tactics to try etc. That is what the GOAT does.
Whereas it looked to me, that they changed nothing and just expected Mahomes natural ability as the GOAT in waiting to get them out of it. Which he categorically absolutely failed to do.
The Crusaders / Canes pack comparison is garbage. 14-2 regular season shows that KC were the Crusaders.
Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
-
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
-
This is great thread.
The GOAT has to take into account whether the sport is played universally, Is a team sport, can be compared across history or relies on technology. Even the latter is tricky as it's a skill in itself to get the best out of your kit (Damon Hill was a pretty average F1 driver but acknowledged to be one of the best ever at developing a car).
Then there's longevity and competing in different parts of the world and conditions - how do you factor that in? How do you compare different era's and use of different ball/bats etc?
So for me, it has to be the greatest in something like Athletics, Soccer, Tennis, Judo or swimming. And getting headlines like MJ did shouldn't count. Was he a greater sportsman than Redgrave (5 Golds in 5 consecutive Olympics) because he was more famous and made more money?
Someone like Pele, Bolt, Federer, Mark Spitz, Teddy Riner for me.
-
Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
I am wasting my time as you aren't countering any counterpoint and just reiterating the same thing over and over. If you actually read, we don't even disagree on much. We only disagree on how things MAY have played out if roles reversed.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
Again, what's your point? There isn't a single potential GOAT who hasn't had serious downs and learned from them to be named as potential greats.
Neither of us have a clue what would have happened in a role reverse situation. I simply believe that Brady would have used his experience / years to try and changes things. Why? Because that is what GOAT players do.
-
Fuck tennis, it's a shit sport played by piston wristed gibbons.
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
I'm not sure what's worse - blaming Mahomes for Chiefs abysmal offensive line or equating Merhts to Tom Brady....
Thanks for the value add to the discussion.
You saying you can't blame the QB for an offensive line?
Don't get pissy because someone points out the gaping flaw in your "analysis". One player is afforded time in the pocket to make decisions and that time isn't as a result of his actions.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in The GOAT:
This is great thread.
The GOAT has to take into account whether the sport is played universally, Is a team sport, can be compared across history or relies on technology. Even the latter is tricky as it's a skill in itself to get the best out of your kit (Damon Hill was a pretty average F1 driver but acknowledged to be one of the best ever at developing a car).
Then there's longevity and competing in different parts of the world and conditions - how do you factor that in? How do you compare different era's and use of different ball/bats etc?
So for me, it has to be the greatest in something like Athletics, Soccer, Tennis, Judo or swimming. And getting headlines like MJ did shouldn't count. Was he a greater sportsman than Redgrave (5 Golds in 5 consecutive Olympics) because he was more famous and made more money?
Someone like Pele, Bolt, Federer, Mark Spitz, Teddy Riner for me.
The Pyramid of Excellence has to be a factor
Sir Steve Redgrave was exceptional - athletic & mental ability, longevity, success - but his pyramid of excellence in rowing compared with Jordan's pyramid in basketball is akin to a piece of Toblerone compared with the Great Pyramid of Giza .
-
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
I am wasting my time as you aren't countering any counterpoint and just reiterating the same thing over and over. If you actually read, we don't even disagree on much. We only disagree on how things MAY have played out if roles reversed.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
Again, what's your point? There isn't a single potential GOAT who hasn't had serious downs and learned from them to be named as potential greats.
Neither of us have a clue what would have happened in a role reverse situation. I simply believe that Brady would have used his experience / years to try and changes things. Why? Because that is what GOAT players do.
My point is that Brady has lost Super Bowls when his offensive line has been outplayed and he's never played behind an offensive line this bad in a Super Bowl.
Of the Chiefs 5 offensive lineman the Chiefs were missing 3 starters (all out injured) and the 5 lineman who started the game were made up of 2 players who went undrafted and 2 players who were drafted in the 7th round (the other was a 2nd rounder). Chiefs talent on the offensive line was awful.
If the Chiefs had rolled out that offensive line vs 49ers in last year's Super Bowl it would have been a similar story (obviously Jimmy G is nowhere near as good as Brady).
-
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
@MajorRage said in The GOAT:
Did you even watch the game? Are you disputing the dominance of the Bucs D line against the Chiefs O? If so, I'm wasting my time arguing here.
I couldn't give a toss what happened during the season, my point is that in this game, the dominance shown by the Bucs D, was the equivalent of a massively dominant forward pack in rugby, totally limiting anything the backs (or a QB) could do.
I am wasting my time as you aren't countering any counterpoint and just reiterating the same thing over and over. If you actually read, we don't even disagree on much. We only disagree on how things MAY have played out if roles reversed.
@KiwiMurph said in The GOAT:
Twelve months ago the same Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 20-13 to a 6th seed Wild Card Titans at home in the first round of the playoffs.
He threw 0 touchdowns and 1 interception in that game.
There's a reason Brady left the Patriots.
Brady went from a team that had a great system but marginal talent to one of the most talented teams in the NFC.
Brady has lost Super Bowls himself due to his offensive line not holding up - see both Super Bowls he lost to the Giants.
Again, what's your point? There isn't a single potential GOAT who hasn't had serious downs and learned from them to be named as potential greats.
Neither of us have a clue what would have happened in a role reverse situation. I simply believe that Brady would have used his experience / years to try and changes things. Why? Because that is what GOAT players do.
My point is that Brady has lost Super Bowls when his offensive line has been outplayed and he's never played behind an offensive line this bad in a Super Bowl.
Of the Chiefs 5 offensive lineman the Chiefs were missing 3 starters (all out injured) and the 5 lineman who started the game were made up of 2 players who went undrafted and 2 players who were drafted in the 7th round (the other was a 2nd rounder). Chiefs talent on the offensive line was awful.
If the Chiefs had rolled out that offensive line vs 49ers in last year's Super Bowl it would have been a similar story (obviously Jimmy G is nowhere near as good as Brady).
Jimmy G wouldn't have needed to be, SF would have their brilliant run game
Babe Didrikson Zaharias - Wikipedia
