Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
All I can see is the players trying to get their hooks into the capital, rather than the increased revenue.
I don't have a problem with some of the capital going to the players, especially if the rumours of Silver Lake wanting more AB tests in the US and UK are correct. A successful ABs team playing attractive Rugby is going to drive revenue more than anything else.
After the f**kups around All Black coaching appointments and decisions about the future of Super Rugby by the NZR management in last 18 months, I can more than understand why the players and other stakeholders are struggling to trust Mark Robinson and his pals.
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
And I'm astonished that people think NZR (there is no NZRU anymore) haven't looked deeply into this, considered multitudinous alternatives, carried out extensive Due Diligence, weighed the alternatives and settled on selling a small 15% stake of commercial income for $465m of capital as being a good outcome.
All I can see is the players trying to get their hooks into the capital, rather than the increased revenue.I wouldn’t be so sure - it looks like a big number and am thinking they are just creaming themselves, as are the media. There is no rocket science here. Just marketing and a line of credit from a bank. All we have heard is that they will set up a company to market the ABs. Why do they need to sell 15% of the ABs forever to do this? Silver lake don’t have special powers - do it them selves or hire people to do it, which is what Silver lake plan to do. We know nothing about the deal and how it’s structured, where the risks lie. Devil is in the detail but Ownership is forever and I just don’t want someone else owning us.
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@sparky said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
If Razor ends up coaching the England, the main person to blame will be the muppet who appointed Foster to coach the ABs instead of him.
That would be Mark Robinson.
Tew set up the process that made it untenable for Rennie and Joseph (better applicants than both Foster and Robertson) to apply.
I'm offering to drive Robertson to the airport on this one. Enough of the "oh I might need to go", "I will have to go" etc etc. Look at every AB coach after Hart. They all had serious lessons to learn in their first international stint it is better off he takes his lumps somewhere else than with the ABs. Bugger off and come back in five years hopefully ready.
(That said if the slide under Foster continues and we need to appoint someone 18 months out from the RWC I'd back Robertson over anyone to pull things together like Rassie in 2019 or Cheika in 2015. So it would be nice to have him in the back pocket.)
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
And I'm astonished that people think NZR (there is no NZRU anymore) haven't looked deeply into this, considered multitudinous alternatives, carried out extensive Due Diligence, weighed the alternatives and settled on selling a small 15% stake of commercial income for $465m of capital as being a good outcome.
I'd be astonished if they did, frankly. The governance around approaching Australian Super franchises directly was appalling.
NZR have been in the media about this, leaking like crazy. I hate that the players went to the media as well, but it's a symptom of a breakdown in trust between the two parties.
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@sparky said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@stargazer said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I've the feeling that NZR is using media tactics to get everyone behind the Silver Lake deal.
It threatens provincial unions with huge bills if they don't agree with changing the format of the Mitre 10 Cup.
They use it in discussions about a women's SR competition.
Now, apparently, Robertson staying in NZ hinges on that deal. What have they told him?I smell dirty politics ....
What about alternatives to the Silverlake deal? Have they thought of any or is this the only horse they're betting on?If Razor ends up coaching the England, the main person to blame will be the muppet who appointed Foster to coach the ABs instead of him.
That would be Mark Robinson.
No the only person to blame if Razor decides to coach England is Razor himself! When a player goes overseas because he misses the ABs is exactly the same. If you want something badly enough you fight for it!
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@kev said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Why do they need to sell 15% of the ABs forever to do this? Silver lake don’t have special powers - do it them selves or hire people to do it, which is what Silver lake plan to do.
although if NZR do that themselves, they dont get an injection of $465m and have to pay the people to do it.
Not saying I agree they should do it, but for me, this leans more toward it being a good deal than not, but as always, devil is in the detail.
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@nzzp said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
And I'm astonished that people think NZR (there is no NZRU anymore) haven't looked deeply into this, considered multitudinous alternatives, carried out extensive Due Diligence, weighed the alternatives and settled on selling a small 15% stake of commercial income for $465m of capital as being a good outcome.
I'd be astonished if they did, frankly. The governance around approaching Australian Super franchises directly was appalling.
NZR have been in the media about this, leaking like crazy. I hate that the players went to the media as well, but it's a symptom of a breakdown in trust between the two parties.
It would appear the players felt they had no option other than to go public
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Danny, you can't blame an individual for wanting to progress their career.
Razor has had incredible success in his coaching career to date and was seen by most people as the outstanding candidate to succeed Hansen.
we clearly saw that NZ rugby is not a meritocracy by appointing fozzie. This would have been a painful public process for Robertson to go through to ultimately be rejected.
There is a danger that Robertson doesn't progress as a coach due to him being in the Crusaders role for a long time and not challenging himself and being in a comfort zone. from what I have seen, he is not the kind of person to settle for that scenario.
The England role would be a huge opportunity but would also be a massive challenge for him on all fronts and ultimately make him better.
The NZR have actively encouraged our coaches to seek international experience, which ultimately has been to our detriment.
The danger is that Robertson goes overseas, paid a huge amount of money, raises his profile considerably and it becomes very hard for NZR to lure him back after fozzie oversees a disappointing campaign in a couple of years (which looks likely on the evidence so far).
so you cant blame Roberston for looking after himself, especially as there is uncertainty about his career progression in the NZ game
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@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
It's a catch 22. NZ rugby (as opposed to NZ Rugby) needs the All Blacks to make money to fund the game, but the more money the All Blacks make the more money they want, thus there is less money to fund they game, thus the All Blacks have to make more money to fund the game, and thus they want more money ..
They don't want more money, they automatically get more money. The collective agreement gives a percentage of income to players. No ifs buts or maybes, so yes the more money the ABs make the more they get. But it is not a catch 22, as that percentage doesn't change.
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@dagrubster said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
Danny, you can't blame an individual for wanting to progress their career.
Razor has had incredible success in his coaching career to date and was seen by most people as the outstanding candidate to succeed Hansen.
we clearly saw that NZ rugby is not a meritocracy by appointing fozzie. This would have been a painful public process for Robertson to go through to ultimately be rejected.
There is a danger that Robertson doesn't progress as a coach due to him being in the Crusaders role for a long time and not challenging himself and being in a comfort zone. from what I have seen, he is not the kind of person to settle for that scenario.
The England role would be a huge opportunity but would also be a massive challenge for him on all fronts and ultimately make him better.
The NZR have actively encouraged our coaches to seek international experience, which ultimately has been to our detriment.
The danger is that Robertson goes overseas, paid a huge amount of money, raises his profile considerably and it becomes very hard for NZR to lure him back after fozzie oversees a disappointing campaign in a couple of years (which looks likely on the evidence so far).
so you cant blame Roberston for looking after himself, especially as there is uncertainty about his career progression in the NZ game
Hi Grubs, but you can say that about any coach or player. I recall when a certain Robbie Deans didn't get a gig as AB coach, his option went well didn't it. And if Razor decides to go overseas , it up to Razor, don't blame anyone else is all I say. I a real fan of his as a coach, but even he said he has indicated he didn't handle the interview real well. He has also been in discussions with NZR on his role going forrward, and this story of him perhaps going to England seems to be has manager, as Razor said on tv early in year he is pretty keen to stay with Crusaders as he missed AB job. Read the thread, we got posters blaming Robinson and co because Joseph went to Japan, Rennie went to Aus, and one thing everyone conveniently forgets is All Blacks is one of few jobs that have coaches lining up for interviews. Aussie just went and got Rennie and offered him the job (and you think Fozzie has been average so far) as did Japan with Joseph. Warren Gatland laughs as he has never applied for a coaching job, he says all his have been offered to him, including Wales and Lions etc. I not sure how many were in for Pommy job when Jones got it. And evryone assuming that Razor is in for Pom job, I don't reckon it even there as Jones hasn't and I don't think will be sacked! I don't even know if Fozzie should have job or not, but I sure as shit know from my days on boards where we appointed coaches etc, I think we had a hell of a more insight as to why coaches etc were appointed than the vast majority of critics that were pretty good at throwing shit at us with their little knowledge they got from sitting at home watching a few game..
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hey mate, I dont think england would appoint robertson. they have similar english managers who have similar experience and profile to roberston.
either they go down the super coach route again, stick with eddie (most likely) or get an up and coming English coach.
you are right about the interview process - it seems pretty antiquated to actually advertise the position. I believe that process just aids them getting the person they want i.e. a NZR employee Fozzie. as they know coaches need to line up their next gig a year or so before the contract actually starts.
anyway. I would like to see NZR seal this deal with silver Lake as the capital investment is definitely required. the only way that Silver lake make money out of the deal is by growing commercial revenues, which benefits NZR.
PE will be in every rugby market after the WR proposal failed. its just a fact of life. and NZ needs capital or NZ rugby will look very different in 5-10 years time and not for the better in my view.
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@dagrubster said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
hey mate, I dont think england would appoint robertson. they have similar english managers who have similar experience and profile to roberston.
either they go down the super coach route again, stick with eddie (most likely) or get an up and coming English coach.
you are right about the interview process - it seems pretty antiquated to actually advertise the position. I believe that process just aids them getting the person they want i.e. a NZR employee Fozzie. as they know coaches need to line up their next gig a year or so before the contract actually starts.
anyway. I would like to see NZR seal this deal with silver Lake as the capital investment is definitely required. the only way that Silver lake make money out of the deal is by growing commercial revenues, which benefits NZR.
PE will be in every rugby market after the WR proposal failed. its just a fact of life. and NZ needs capital or NZ rugby will look very different in 5-10 years time and not for the better in my view.
Amen to that mate. I know the NZPA have got alternate plans, which is better than the normal "I just against it", but I just think , like you, they can take AB brand to another level.
As for just appointing an AB coach without nominations or interview process , there would be a meltdown, I magine if Rennie got the job, and ABs struggled, or Razor geez there would be all the 'experts' condemning the NZR for that. As I said even at junior level you wouldn't believe the crap we received in a place like the Nua for who we appointes as coaches on the JAB, and when I on senior union it was even more. And as I said generally from people who did jad jack squat in the way of actually trying to run the game. It hasn't improved with rugby forums being on the net! -
@machpants said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@booboo said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
It's a catch 22. NZ rugby (as opposed to NZ Rugby) needs the All Blacks to make money to fund the game, but the more money the All Blacks make the more money they want, thus there is less money to fund they game, thus the All Blacks have to make more money to fund the game, and thus they want more money ..
They don't want more money, they automatically get more money. The collective agreement gives a percentage of income to players. No ifs buts or maybes, so yes the more money the ABs make the more they get. But it is not a catch 22, as that percentage doesn't change.
They get a set proportion of income.
Capital investment is not income.
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@taniwharugby it’s all about the detail. Just a great believer in you get nothing for free. Sometimes everything ain’t that shiny.
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@dan54 said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@sparky said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
@stargazer said in Silver Lake buying a stake in the ABs?:
I've the feeling that NZR is using media tactics to get everyone behind the Silver Lake deal.
It threatens provincial unions with huge bills if they don't agree with changing the format of the Mitre 10 Cup.
They use it in discussions about a women's SR competition.
Now, apparently, Robertson staying in NZ hinges on that deal. What have they told him?I smell dirty politics ....
What about alternatives to the Silverlake deal? Have they thought of any or is this the only horse they're betting on?If Razor ends up coaching the England, the main person to blame will be the muppet who appointed Foster to coach the ABs instead of him.
That would be Mark Robinson.
No the only person to blame if Razor decides to coach England is Razor himself! When a player goes overseas because he misses the ABs is exactly the same. If you want something badly enough you fight for it!
That analogy doesn't work. If a player misses the ABs in June they can fight their way back in by the end of the year.
Razor can't get the AB job for a set period. He can't fight to get it.
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@dagrubster The AB valuation is probably a little deflated at the moment due to Covid. Silver Lake will probably make capital gains just by buying in at the right time.
They will also be buying a right to a proportionate percentage of generated revenue. They dont just hand over 500m and get whatever they can make on top. They buy the right to a percentage of future earnings. Who knows how much, but it probably reflects the percentage of their stake.
So, nah. They can just buy in and sit on their hands and they will still make money.
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I’m not in favor of it, but I equally don’t trust NZRU to get it right alone. Their recent history suggests they need some adults in the room and SL may be able to provide a framework for some needed change to happen.
On the other hand, I just hate it. Like, really hate it. And it feels like a good chunk of NZ culture can be bought for about 460 million dollars, which is about the value of 460 houses in Auckland. That doesn’t sound like enough to me, even if I could stomach it.
I can’t help but feel that this is a really shrewd investment that will certainly pay off for SL if it happens.
