2021 Crusaders
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@bobily2 said in 2021 Crusaders:
I don't have too much of a problem with his tackling. Any first five will probably miss a few, but it really is a momentum killer when you finally get a penalty to get out of your half, only to boot it dead.
To be honest - I don't have much problem with that (Richie kicking the ball dead).
He's very, very aggressive/ambitious with his line kicking from penalties (Mitch Hunt equally so).
I think that philosophy comes from Razor. You're so much better off having a lineout five metres out than 10 metres out - every metre further is exponentially less likely to score from a lineout drive.
The flip side of that is that you're going to miss touch more frequently - than someone who is equally accurate, but more conservative. But, your team is going to score more tries when you hit.
It reminds me of those old days in rugby league where they'd get a penalty and basically boot it parallel to the tryline, because of how frightened they were of missing touch.
Brain dead.
I presume they've worked out that it's better to miss one in 10 and go 40 metres downfield with 9 others? I hardly watch league these days.
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@bobily2 said in 2021 Crusaders:
There is an article on stuff today about how he plays best when he's under presssure. Personally this is something I haven't really seen at test match level. It seems to be whenever we have a tough game he makes multiple mistakes in his kicking around the field.
I think he may actually play well under pressure at test level, if he's not restrained too much by the game plan/structures imposed by the coaches. He didn't have that freedom for the ABs most of the time. I think we can only know how well he plays at test level, if they change that (and as I said, a few different selections around him). "Mo'unga unleased" is definitely something I'd like to see, but don't think it's going to happen under Foster.
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@chris-b said in 2021 Crusaders:
@bobily2 said in 2021 Crusaders:
I don't have too much of a problem with his tackling. Any first five will probably miss a few, but it really is a momentum killer when you finally get a penalty to get out of your half, only to boot it dead.
To be honest - I don't have much problem with that (Richie kicking the ball dead).
He's very, very aggressive/ambitious with his line kicking from penalties (Mitch Hunt equally so).
I think that philosophy comes from Razor. You're so much better off having a lineout five metres out than 10 metres out - every metre further is exponentially less likely to score from a lineout drive.
The flip side of that is that you're going to miss touch more frequently - than someone who is equally accurate, but more conservative. But, your team is going to score more tries when you hit.
It reminds me of those old days in rugby league where they'd get a penalty and basically boot it parallel to the tryline, because of how frightened they were of missing touch.
Brain dead.
I presume they've worked out that it's better to miss one in 10 and go 40 metres downfield with 9 others? I hardly watch league these days.
How often has it worked out in tight games? I think I remember at least 3 times in tough games he's kicked it dead, not to mention other kicking mistakes in those games too. I think there are times for high risk plays, but I don't think you can rely on them when it matters.
There are going to be some games where momentum is against you, and in those situations a penalty and a chance to get up the field can halt that and swing things around (regardless of whether you score off that play or not). However, one thing that will assure you'll stay under the pump is kicking the ball dead.
If you get fifty penalty kicks to touch each game then maybe it works out better off, but if you're playing England or South Africa, you might only get 3 or 4 good attacking opportunities the whole game and to have one of those wasted makes quite a big difference.
Perhaps this is one of those strategies that works out a bit better at SR level than a Championship clincher, or RWC playoff game.
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@stargazer A lesson that has stuck with me.
After we lost the 1991 RWC game to Australia, Simon Poidevin said that he knew he could just ignore Fox and Bernie McCahill and chase straight for Craig Innes, because the former two were just going to shovel it onwards. Kieran Crowley also offered little running threat.
I have a strong recollection as the game was slipping away that Foxy actually sold a dummy and ran and the field opened up in front of him, because this was so totally unexpected.
Infortunately, Foxy's little legs carried him along about as fast as Granddad's Model T and the cover mowed him down.
You need to have lots of threats, so that the defence can't just double team your few big weapons.
A problem with the selections of the past few years is that our backline threats have diminished compared to the hey-days of Nonu, Savea, Ben Smith, younger SBW, Beaudy, etc.
Things are moving in the right direction - if we have Clarke, Jordan and Beauden as our back three. If Rieko would come right at centre, he can offer more attacking threat than ALB or Jack, and there might even be a role for Laumape.
All of which should provide Richie with more space to work his magic.
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@bobily2 I don't know the stats, but in my view if you're going to kick aggressively, then you've got to do it all the time.
It doesn't make sense to reduce your chances of scoring when you're in a tight game - unless, Richie really is affected by the pressure and it becomes more likely that he will fuck it up.
Maybe someone can be induced to keep a record of RM's line-kicking for the AB season so we can see whether it happens. Don't let Richie read it though!
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@stargazer said in 2021 Crusaders:
@bobily2 said in 2021 Crusaders:
There is an article on stuff today about how he plays best when he's under presssure. Personally this is something I haven't really seen at test match level. It seems to be whenever we have a tough game he makes multiple mistakes in his kicking around the field.
I think he may actually play well under pressure at test level, if he's not restrained too much by the game plan/structures imposed by the coaches. He didn't have that freedom for the ABs most of the time. I think we can only know how well he plays at test level, if they change that (and as I said, a few different selections around him). "Mo'unga unleased" is definitely something I'd like to see, but don't think it's going to happen under Foster.
Yes, I'd definitely be interested in how he goes with Robertson developing the game plan. At the very least, he offers quite a different style of playmaking to DMac or Barrett, which has potential to be quite valuable for changing up the approach if our tactics aren't working.
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@chris-b said in 2021 Crusaders:
@bobily2 I don't know the stats, but in my view if you're going to kick aggressively, then you've got to do it all the time.
It doesn't make sense to reduce your chances of scoring when you're in a tight game - unless, Richie really is affected by the pressure and it becomes more likely that he will fuck it up.
Maybe someone can be induced to keep a record of RM's line-kicking for the AB season so we can see whether it happens. Don't let Richie read it though!
I think this is probably the case in general. Some of those games where you know you're on the back foot and you can see the loss coming (France 2007, England 2019, Ireland in the US) it seems like any high-risk play doesn't work out favourably.
But yes, the stats would definitely be helpful. In another 15 years we will have high-tech simulations where we can run 1000 games and see what works out better.
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@chris-b I definitely have the impression that all the bad/missed kicks in last year's test matches have been attributed to RM, while several of them weren't his. A bit of the same myth as tackling; he isn't as bad as people make him out to be.
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@stargazer said in 2021 Crusaders:
@bobily2 said in 2021 Crusaders:
There is an article on stuff today about how he plays best when he's under presssure. Personally this is something I haven't really seen at test match level. It seems to be whenever we have a tough game he makes multiple mistakes in his kicking around the field.
I think he may actually play well under pressure at test level, if he's not restrained too much by the game plan/structures imposed by the coaches. He didn't have that freedom for the ABs most of the time. I think we can only know how well he plays at test level, if they change that (and as I said, a few different selections around him). "Mo'unga unleased" is definitely something I'd like to see, but don't think it's going to happen under Foster.
my opinion is that we are not going to be able to play to his strengths, and open that 10 channel up for him unless we change our thinking in the forward pack. Big munter ball runners who can get defenses back-peddling. And lots of them.
And like Chris said, some genuine pace at 13.
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@mariner4life I wonder how a midfield of Havili and Rieko would go. A good communicator and defence organiser (a bit in the Crotty mould), combined with fast ball-running centre (if he can learn how to pass to wingers).
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@stargazer said in 2021 Crusaders:
@mariner4life I wonder how a midfield of Havili and Rieko would go. A good communicator and defence organiser (a bit in the Crotty mould), combined with fast ball-running centre (if he can learn how to pass to wingers).
it sounds handy to me. Especially if he plays 12 all year next to Mounga and continues to play well.
But to use a point i have raised before, it depends on the game plan we want to play.
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@chris-b said in 2021 Crusaders:
@bobily2 said in 2021 Crusaders:
I don't have too much of a problem with his tackling. Any first five will probably miss a few, but it really is a momentum killer when you finally get a penalty to get out of your half, only to boot it dead.
To be honest - I don't have much problem with that (Richie kicking the ball dead).
He's very, very aggressive/ambitious with his line kicking from penalties (Mitch Hunt equally so).
I think that philosophy comes from Razor. You're so much better off having a lineout five metres out than 10 metres out - every metre further is exponentially less likely to score from a lineout drive.
The flip side of that is that you're going to miss touch more frequently - than someone who is equally accurate, but more conservative. But, your team is going to score more tries when you hit.
It reminds me of those old days in rugby league where they'd get a penalty and basically boot it parallel to the tryline, because of how frightened they were of missing touch.
Brain dead.
I presume they've worked out that it's better to miss one in 10 and go 40 metres downfield with 9 others? I hardly watch league these days.
I don’t think I agree with this. It’s like back when we used to use line outs because we wanted attacking ball down the back and out hookers couldn’t hit the side of a barn.
It’s better to have the ball 10 metes out than not have it.
I also don’t think it’s really a Razor philosophy either. Although happy to stand corrected if I hear it out of the horses mouth.
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@pukunui said in 2021 Crusaders:
People seem to forget that Dan Carter would kick penalties dead on a fairly regular basis. Usually followed by the commentators saying “well he is human after all” like they would when he missed a goal kick.
IIRC he was a pretty decent test 10.Obviously it will happen. It just seems it is happening far more regularly than it should be happening, particularly in tight games.
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@nepia said in 2021 Crusaders:
I also don’t think it’s really a Razor philosophy either. Although happy to stand corrected if I hear it out of the horses mouth.
That's where I heard about it from initially. Can't remember whether it was on here or on Radio sport, but I think it might have been Lima Sopoaga kicking conservatively to touch (that long ago) and Razor said something along the lines of, "He's got to do better than that".
Sticks in my memory, because it was a bit of a penny drop.
But, really, the proof is in the pudding.
I'd say Richie and Mitch Hunt are arch proponents of the greedy penalty kick to touch and they've probably done 95% of the line kicking for the Crusaders during Razor's tenure.
If Razor doesn't believe in it, he hasn't stamped it out.
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@pukunui said in 2021 Crusaders:
People seem to forget that Dan Carter would kick penalties dead on a fairly regular basis. Usually followed by the commentators saying “well he is human after all” like they would when he missed a goal kick.
IIRC he was a pretty decent test 10.Oh no, definitely not forgotten. The minute Mounga plays even half as good as an in form DC, I'll forgive him a penalty kicked dead twice a season.
At the moment, what you said is a bit like watching Jordie get needlessly bundled into touch and saying that used to happen to Goldie so it's ok.
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@bones said in 2021 Crusaders:
@pukunui said in 2021 Crusaders:
People seem to forget that Dan Carter would kick penalties dead on a fairly regular basis. Usually followed by the commentators saying “well he is human after all” like they would when he missed a goal kick.
IIRC he was a pretty decent test 10.Oh no, definitely not forgotten. The minute Mounga plays even half as good as an in form DC, I'll forgive him a penalty kicked dead twice a season.
At the moment, what you said is a bit like watching Jordie get needlessly bundled into touch and saying that used to happen to Goldie so it's ok.
It’s more about people banging on like RM is the first 10 who ever kicked a penalty dead.
By all means critique his general play as a test 1st 5. Or even his goal kicking. But the emphasis people are putting on a handful of dead kicks is laughable.
Serious question, how many has he actually kicked dead in tests? -
@pukunui said in 2021 Crusaders:
But the emphasis people are putting on a handful of dead kicks is laughable.
No it's not. When you're DC and killing it on the field, then people are going to shrug their shoulders and think "worth it".
When you're Mounga and have just chip kicked to the opposition, got caught behind the advantage line and turned it over, then you kick the fucking ball dead on a penalty which might have been able to finally allow your team to start gaining some momentum.... people are going to be spending a few minutes wrangling their remote out of the TV screen.
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@bones said in 2021 Crusaders:
@pukunui said in 2021 Crusaders:
But the emphasis people are putting on a handful of dead kicks is laughable.
No it's not. When you're DC and killing it on the field, then people are going to shrug their shoulders and think "worth it".
When you're Mounga and have just chip kicked to the opposition, got caught behind the advantage line and turned it over, then you kick the fucking ball dead on a penalty which might have been able to finally allow your team to start gaining some momentum.... people are going to be spending a few minutes wrangling their remote out of the TV screen.
So how many times has it actually happened?
