2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA
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@victor-meldrew it is an issue that is never really dealt with in the decision - but the protocols around how teams interact with refs away from the pitch are non-existant.
You have calls and wattsaps between Rassie and Berry and it doesn't appear that there is any framework as to how the process should go. It appears from the information available that the refs are left to kinda figure it out themselves with the Jutge only getting tangently involved on the Monday.
The fact that there is no set process and no real leadership from head office leaves the refs (and the teams) with ways to resolve any issues that come up during a series like this.
I am not excusing Erasmus or suggesting that WR lack of action in anyway mitigates what he did. What I'm saying is the process in place is a complete shambles.
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@sidbarret said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@victor-meldrew it is an issue that is never really dealt with in the decision - but the protocols around how teams interact with refs away from the pitch are non-existant.
You have calls and wattsaps between Rassie and Berry and it doesn't appear that there is any framework as to how the process should go. It appears from the information available that the refs are left to kinda figure it out themselves with the Jutge only getting tangently involved on the Monday.
The fact that there is no set process and no real leadership from head office leaves the refs (and the teams) with ways to resolve any issues that come up during a series like this.
I am not excusing Erasmus or suggesting that WR lack of action in anyway mitigates what he did. What I'm saying is the process in place is a complete shambles.
đź’Ż
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@sidbarret said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders fuck you, you fucking dogshit fluffybunny, I hope your cat gets mild diarrhoea you cruel disgusting fluffybunny....
For making me go and read fucken twitter.
Anyhow - rugby journalism in SA is proper shit and they gain a lot of engagement by inflaming people's emotions.
An example of this is the sarugbymag article which is, intentionally, misleading in that makes it seem like Siya was sanctioned for the media conference where stated he felt disrespected.
That charge was explicitly dismissed, but it is good for getting people all upset.
As for the general sense of persecution - I think it has a lot do with being a bit of an outsider. Australia and New Zealand are culturally very close and allign pretty closely again with the British isles.
You're welcome. Now have a long shower and you should be cleansed. I think that's what Jacob Zuma taught us anyway 🤣
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@sidbarret said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders fuck you, you fucking dogshit fluffybunny, I hope your cat gets mild diarrhoea you cruel disgusting fluffybunny....
For making me go and read fucken twitter.
Anyhow - rugby journalism in SA is proper shit and they gain a lot of engagement by inflaming people's emotions.
An example of this is the sarugbymag article which is, intentionally, misleading in that makes it seem like Siya was sanctioned for the media conference where stated he felt disrespected.
That charge was explicitly dismissed, but it is good for getting people all upset.
As for the general sense of persecution - I think it has a lot do with being a bit of an outsider. Australia and New Zealand are culturally very close and allign pretty closely again with the British isles.
I think Nel agrees with you re twitter. Thinks more needs to be said, less written down. Which is a very fair observation.
However, any statement that SA is alone persecuted by NH is completely absurd. Whatever you've heard, we've heard it.
Winners are grinners, you guys should just embrace it. IT took me probably 20 years to learn that.
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@sidbarret said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
I am not excusing Erasmus or suggesting that WR lack of action in anyway mitigates what he did. What I'm saying is the process in place is a complete shambles.
Yeah, I know you're not excusing him. But for me the key thing isn't about protocols, missing or otherwise, it's more the way rugby is heading and the need to get a grip on it before it becomes like soccer. When we need protocols between Refs and managers, it says to me something is very wrong.
It may be illogical, but I'm also pissed off it came from a Saffa. With one or two exceptions I always felt SA understood the history of the game and the need for off-pitch respect better than most - Heineke Meyer being a great example.
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@stodders I was thinking about persecution complexes/lived experiences.
But the TLDR is: Rassie was a fluffybunny. He should apologize immediately to Berry and to Rugby. And SARU comes out of this horribly.
But from s’Africans’ perspective the video didn’t get the boks an advantage. It finally got this team close to parity in treatment from the refs.
What is frustrating for us is that this team isn’t a creature of a single South African cultural group, much less an expression or extension of the Afrikaaner volk. That was part of what Rassie was protesting. His, and apparently the team’s view, was that they were being treated by the refs as something they weren’t: the Afrikaans bullies of apartheid-era myth. For a team that very consciously defined itself as being the first truly representative bok team that must’ve grated.
But I think the far bigger thing was the team’s perception that Siya was shown far less respect than Jones.
So, the relevant cultural perspective is from the Cape Flats as well as the wineries of Stellenbosch, from Bisho in the Eastern Cape through the leafy Sandton suburbs reeking of too much white wine and white guilt to the townships of NKyamazane.
But Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, coloured and Afrikaaner share a history of being treated with thinly disguised patronizing contempt by the English. And try as we might, we’d never quite master the subtle social rules and etiquette to be treated as truly civilized.
I’m very sure Berry didn’t intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But I’m equally sure that Kolisi and his team were not accorded the same respect as Jones and the Lions. Kolisi damn sure was: he testified to it.
Rassie’s video was too long, the tone was shit and, having read the judgment, his behaviour leading up to its publication and afterwards was bullying and cowardly, frankly: inexcusable.
But it was also necessary. There is no question after it of any ref dismissing Kolisi, they came correct. And I don’t see any official channel that could have been used to achieve that result.
And here’s the thing: the panel rightly went out of its way to foreground the cost of all this on Berry.
I think that to try and remedy it an extent, they underlined that they accepted his evidence that he did not intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders I was thinking about persecution complexes/lived experiences.
But the TLDR is: Rassie was a fluffybunny. He should apologize immediately to Berry and to Rugby. And SARU comes out of this horribly.
But from s’Africans’ perspective the video didn’t get the boks an advantage. It finally got this team close to parity in treatment from the refs.
What is frustrating for us is that this team isn’t a creature of a single South African cultural group, much less an expression or extension of the Afrikaaner volk. That was part of what Rassie was protesting. His, and apparently the team’s view, was that they were being treated by the refs as something they weren’t: the Afrikaans bullies of apartheid-era myth. For a team that very consciously defined itself as being the first truly representative bok team that must’ve grated.
But I think the far bigger thing was the team’s perception that Siya was shown far less respect than Jones.
So, the relevant cultural perspective is from the Cape Flats as well as the wineries of Stellenbosch, from Bisho in the Eastern Cape through the leafy Sandton suburbs reeking of too much white wine and white guilt to the townships of NKyamazane.
But Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, coloured and Afrikaaner share a history of being treated with thinly disguised patronizing contempt by the English. And try as we might, we’d never quite master the subtle social rules and etiquette to be treated as truly civilized.
I’m very sure Berry didn’t intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But I’m equally sure that Kolisi and his team were not accorded the same respect as Jones and the Lions. Kolisi damn sure was: he testified to it.
Rassie’s video was too long, the tone was shit and, having read the judgment, his behaviour leading up to its publication and afterwards was bullying and cowardly, frankly: inexcusable.
But it was also necessary. There is no question after it of any ref dismissing Kolisi, they came correct. And I don’t see any official channel that could have been used to achieve that result.
And here’s the thing: the panel rightly went out of its way to foreground the cost of all this on Berry.
I think that to try and remedy it an extent, they underlined that they accepted his evidence that he did not intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged.
So to distill this down into short form, Berry was guilty of micro aggressions and Erasmus donned his woke super cape to right the wrongs of decades/centuries of colonial rule/white supremacy.
Nope. Not buying it. I'm not going to dismiss this out of hand. I can certainly empathise with parts of your rationale, especially the bit about how subjugated ppl feel under colonial rule (which takes generations to dissipate away). But to suggest Erasmus got on his steed to defend Kolisi's honour and demand equality for SA when officiated by refs? Nope. He took a calculated gamble because he sought to gain an advantage. Not parity. Not equality. He knew refs following would be scared shitless by insinuations of racism and bias. He played on it and he got what he wanted. What's worse is he sought to get his way at the expense of Berry and his career. That's not the definition of a saviour. That's the definition of a sociopath.
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@stodders I certainly saw no difference in the treatment of Siya than Jones, I watched the game on my iPad with headphones, which is really good to hear the ref on the sky app. Feeling you are persecuted is not persecution, I think it mauve an in camp attitude that is a self fulfilling prophecy. It seems like the bok group conflate a rabid press and social media, with professional refs.
Sand nothing excuses RE blackmail attempt, and release of video.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders I was thinking about persecution complexes/lived experiences.
But the TLDR is: Rassie was a fluffybunny. He should apologize immediately to Berry and to Rugby. And SARU comes out of this horribly.
But from s’Africans’ perspective the video didn’t get the boks an advantage. It finally got this team close to parity in treatment from the refs.
What is frustrating for us is that this team isn’t a creature of a single South African cultural group, much less an expression or extension of the Afrikaaner volk. That was part of what Rassie was protesting. His, and apparently the team’s view, was that they were being treated by the refs as something they weren’t: the Afrikaans bullies of apartheid-era myth. For a team that very consciously defined itself as being the first truly representative bok team that must’ve grated.
But I think the far bigger thing was the team’s perception that Siya was shown far less respect than Jones.
So, the relevant cultural perspective is from the Cape Flats as well as the wineries of Stellenbosch, from Bisho in the Eastern Cape through the leafy Sandton suburbs reeking of too much white wine and white guilt to the townships of NKyamazane.
But Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, coloured and Afrikaaner share a history of being treated with thinly disguised patronizing contempt by the English. And try as we might, we’d never quite master the subtle social rules and etiquette to be treated as truly civilized.
I’m very sure Berry didn’t intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But I’m equally sure that Kolisi and his team were not accorded the same respect as Jones and the Lions. Kolisi damn sure was: he testified to it.
Rassie’s video was too long, the tone was shit and, having read the judgment, his behaviour leading up to its publication and afterwards was bullying and cowardly, frankly: inexcusable.
But it was also necessary. There is no question after it of any ref dismissing Kolisi, they came correct. And I don’t see any official channel that could have been used to achieve that result.
And here’s the thing: the panel rightly went out of its way to foreground the cost of all this on Berry.
I think that to try and remedy it an extent, they underlined that they accepted his evidence that he did not intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged.
TL;DR second paragraph good point. Rest complete and utter horse shit.
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@majorrage don’t beat around the bush.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage don’t beat around the bush.
Mate its' basically a page of you saying Berry's a racist but he doesn't know it.
And that the Bok team are so far above this now, they are better than everybody, including the referee about it, and want to be treated as such.
All because you felt a couple of ref's calls didn't go your way. As for the lack of respect, did you see the way Pearce spoke to Sexton on the weekend? He was pretty blunt and may have even told him to piss off. Does that now give him the right to attack Pearce as the Irish team are such a representative bunch & Pearce is still stuck back in the dark ages (but doesn't know it)?
In my view, it's unequivocal complete and utter horse shit.
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@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
you appear to have lost your goddam mind
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
Of course we do.
But Kolisi, seriously? The World Cup winning captain?
If you genuinely think a intl referee could treat arguably the most respected player / leader on the planet lesser because of his race then I genuinely think you have serious issues.
This whole thing is beyond absurd.
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Thanks for your perspective Smuts. I disagree with much of it, but I would say it provides some background explanation as to why the backlash from SA has appeared the way it has.
The history of colonisation and the outsider feeling is real. But that has been true for decades, and yet it seems to me SA rugby and it's supporters have gone way off the deep end in the last 6 months in a way they never have before.
I've been on the Fern now for (welp) 15 years, as well as other rugby fora, and rugby Twitter. We've had SA posters and great discussions. There was always a bit of 'us vs them' about it but it never got to a stage where you felt like a siege mentality had set in.
But the last six months have been truly insufferable. After every game a torrent of SA fans online bleat about one thing and one thing only - the referee. A wrong decision or non-decision. The Boks were cheated, robbed. We're hated because we're better, or you hate us because of our tactics, or the fact that we have black players (like every other nation).
Those sentiments are expressed across every fan base, but never before have I seen it as vociferous and consistent as the last six months out of South Africa.
The only conclusion I can draw is the behaviour of South African officials has fanned the flames that have always been there. They have given credence to the lunatic fringe, so now that fringe has become the majority.
And it's hard to know how to get that genie back in the bottle.
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Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
