RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool B)
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@Chester-Draws said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@gt12 said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:Finally had a chance to watch most of the game again.
I'm impressed with Bridge and Reece on attack, but still not convinced about their effectiveness under the high ball. If they are going to be out first choice wingers, we should expect high kicks all day
We've been beaten a couple of times recently, with a common theme:
- don't give us the ball,
- don't let us run in broken play.
If they want to kick the ball to our wingers, I reckon we are sweet. It means that the opposition are going away from what beats us, to hoping we will make mistakes.
On the other hand, our box kicks and bombs weren't really that good
We were setting up broken plays. We don't really have any penetration of the Bok defence when it is set -- basically none -- so we need to get it unsettled. We trust our defence to hold, so giving them the ball from time to time isn't an issue. If, however we do recover the ball in a situation like that, we spring straight on to attack. It's our best chance to break through. Kicking deep isn't effective, and we don't really make metres in set phase.
What do you propose they do other than those box kicks? Ineffective runs in midfield?
Well, I don't think that the Boks were kicking without trying to reduce either 1 or 2 above - in fact, they were mostly kicking short and contesting them, which was my point, and pretty clear from watching the game, of course, but I guess I should have pointed that out. I could also point out that in the last two matches we lost (or drew) with SA, they have kicked more than us, as did Ireland when they beat us last year (see ESPN) I don't think they are only doing it because they are out of ideas, I think they are playing to pattern that gets them territory and chances for possession. It's also not a surprise that Ireland and SA have two of the best box kickers in the world either, nor that we might see either of them later (if we make it that far).
My point is that in traffic our guys didn't do a very good job catching contestable kicks, and as a result I'd expect we'll be looking at 2011 semi/final strategy from our opponents, assuming we make it that far. My question is whether these are the wingers to nail it when it matters. Some might say that others in the squad are better equipped to deal with such challenges. This is a discussion forum.
I'm not sure what you're second point is about? I'm not saying that a kicking game is bad or the rationale for an attacking kicking game, I'm questioning some of the kicks and suggesting that is needs to improve significantly. Do you disagree? Your point about the lack of effectiveness in midfield is a good one though - it seems strategic as, according to ESPN stats we got total of 3 metres running out the following players (Laulala, Moody, Ta'avao, Ofa, Frizell, Pat T, and SBW) and that's not counting bugger all from Cane, Read, and Coles. Clearly, it was hard to make ground, but alot of that was us trying to around them, rather than through them. I really hope it was a strategy and that we somewhere have a running game, but I'm yet to see it. As a result, I hope that our kicking game can be as good as it can be.
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I think if you look at the whole picture it’s clear to me that the selections of not just the wings but the whole team is about trying to capitalize on our points of difference relative to other teams. The easy conservative selections against Springboks would to choose defensively and match them. Choose Owen Franks, choose a big 6, choose Bender at fullback and Jordie on one wing to counter their kicking. Instead Hansen chooses to capitalize on our points of differences areas that we don’t just match the opposition but where they will struggle to beat us. Props who can handle, an electric back row, form wings who can finish, an irrepressible full back. I salute Hansen for making the aggressive selections and I think he was leaning that way on the wings in 2015 with NMS and Naholo, but Naholo disappointed in pool stages.
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@DMX said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:I think if you look at the whole picture it’s clear to me that the selections of not just the wings but the whole team is about trying to capitalize on our points of difference relative to other teams. The easy conservative selections against Springboks would to choose defensively and match them. Choose Owen Franks, choose a big 6, choose Bender at fullback and Jordie on one wing to counter their kicking. Instead Hansen chooses to capitalize on our points of differences areas that we don’t just match the opposition but where they will struggle to beat us. Props who can handle, an electric back row, form wings who can finish, an irrepressible full back. I salute Hansen for making the aggressive selections and I think he was leaning that way on the wings in 2015 with NMS and Naholo, but Naholo disappointed in pool stages.
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@NTA said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@pakman said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:One for @NTA : when LH at 45 degrees (Ofa in H2 penalty win) how does LH lock get any shove on behind him? Noticed when Marler used to do this Chris Robshaw (big unit) was usually in full contact behind him?
That's a tricky one - could answer if I was in that scrum
First note: given hookers tend to no longer be slim through the hips, a lot of props are on an angle to start. You could see it a couple of times with England last night - everyone in these test front rows is almost as wide across the arse as they are the shoulders. Stick two heads between the hips, both props are effectively angled in.
Back to the point: if I'm going in a little sideways, what I'm relying on is my hooker, THP, and TH lock to drive toward the opposition's hooker and THP - if I'm kind of going right, but the mass of the scrum is going left, the force of the two locks is generally going to end up being straight.
Think of it like a shit that has the wind to come across the rear port quarter, but uses the helm to keep it straight. I guess.
That last paragraph is a thing of beauty!
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@NTA said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@pakman said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:One for @NTA : when LH at 45 degrees (Ofa in H2 penalty win) how does LH lock get any shove on behind him? Noticed when Marler used to do this Chris Robshaw (big unit) was usually in full contact behind him?
That's a tricky one - could answer if I was in that scrum
First note: given hookers tend to no longer be slim through the hips, a lot of props are on an angle to start. You could see it a couple of times with England last night - everyone in these test front rows is almost as wide across the arse as they are the shoulders. Stick two heads between the hips, both props are effectively angled in.
Back to the point: if I'm going in a little sideways, what I'm relying on is my hooker, THP, and TH lock to drive toward the opposition's hooker and THP - if I'm kind of going right, but the mass of the scrum is going left, the force of the two locks is generally going to end up being straight.
Think of it like a shit that has the wind to come across the rear port quarter, but uses the helm to keep it straight. I guess.
Thanks, @NTA Makes sense.
The scrum was at 6.15. By the end Patty T pushing on ribs of Ofa (who is completely sideways!) but he manages to stay underneath Nyakane, who pops up. Penalty.
Fitz used to say having slim hips was a big plus as hooker.
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@Chester-Draws said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:We were setting up broken plays.
After watching a replay that penny kind of dropped for me. Obviously the ABs have wanted to play off turnover ball since day dot, but I think there has been an intentional change in the passing game to play much looser in the middle third of the park and prioritise speed and movement over accuracy. An accurate pass is good, but an unexpected one is even better.
There were a few examples of it (the first 20 minutes being an ugly example of it not working), but the three phases leading up to the Scott Barrett try is the best example - two bounce passes and one basketball pass and everyone going into contact looking for an offload. I'm not saying both bounce passes were intentional, but in both cases they weren't a happy accident either.
Have the rush defence read as many micro broken plays as possible coming off box kicks, offloads, kick-passes etc and if you have enough the superior game sense should prevail.
The only wrinkle is if we get into a situation like the England/Ireland tests last year where we generate 2-3 chances off broken play and shell them. RWC semis and finals tend to be low-scoring affairs so any game plan which isn't "play possession and kick penalties" always seems like the wheels could come off when it counts (...2003).
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@MajorRage interesting watching the SA move his bind form Moody's body to his shoulder or arm...I doubt that would have any effect on Moody dropping to the ground.
Honestly, I do not see the point of a penalty in those situations, in each, the ball was at the back of the scrum, what benefit to this game and the game as a whole does a reset and/or penalty serve?
It is a shame there weren't multiple SA infractions for some bored out of his head Kiwi to make one of those about.
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@taniwharugby the poor chap is either wrong or doesn’t understand rugby at all in pretty much each point!
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@MajorRage is this what the game has come to? Pedantic reimagining of the laws to justify that your team gets beaten? FFS, people, the players are better than this, lift your game.
ALso, GAGR did it better with circles and arrows
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@nzzp said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:reimagining of the laws
Unfortunately that is what you get with Faeces. Completely random and frustrating as a fan. He seems to view them as guidelines open to "interpretation" - even the ones that are really quite clear.
Not going to validate that pathetic video, too stupid for words.
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@nzzp said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@MajorRage is this what the game has come to? Pedantic reimagining of the laws to justify that your team gets beaten? FFS, people, the players are better than this, lift your game.
ALso, GAGR did it better with circles and arrows
To be honest, this one is so bad I feel you are disrespecting the GAGR one by even mentioning it in the same post!
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@MajorRage what’s really funny was all the ball and field position the Boks had in the first 20 minutes , and their game plan consisted of bashing into contact...
It’s all very well to highlight decisions that don’t go your way..but if you look inwardly.
Ask themselves this question..what could we have done better when we had ball in hand...?,it’s was only when you were down 3-17 that you managed to get some ball in the hands of Cheslin Kolbe..
They probably had the most dangerous back on the paddock ,but in the first 20 minutes you reverted to Type..
I think they need to Take a bit of responsibility and look at your own teams performance. -
@MajorRage The Media scumbags ruining the WC that's a pathetic video desperation written all over it.
We march on and stuff them by more points in the final then hold up the WC with a big Fuck you. -
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@Steven-Harris said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@MajorRage what’s really funny was all the ball and field position the Boks had in the first 20 minutes , and their game plan consisted of bashing into contact...
It’s all very well to highlight decisions that don’t go your way..but if you look inwardly.
Ask themselves this question..what could we have done better when we had ball in hand...?,it’s was only when you were down 3-17 that you managed to get some ball in the hands of Cheslin Kolbe..
They probably had the most dangerous back on the paddock ,but in the first 20 minutes you reverted to Type..
I think they need to Take a bit of responsibility and look at your own teams performance.SA, along with a number of other teams, play old style rugby. Why should they not try to expand their gameplan? I know they tried it a few years ago and gave it away when there was a coaching change. My basic understanding is that at CC level they play much more open, and the Lions Stormers and Sharks certainly try to play open at times. They shouldn't forget that back in the day we were the major exponents of 10 man rugby and at one time Wales led the way with running rugby. Perhaps their fans should ask why they persist with anti-rugby when they should be capable of much more?
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@canefan said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@Steven-Harris said in RWC: All Blacks v South Africa (Pool
:@MajorRage what’s really funny was all the ball and field position the Boks had in the first 20 minutes , and their game plan consisted of bashing into contact...
It’s all very well to highlight decisions that don’t go your way..but if you look inwardly.
Ask themselves this question..what could we have done better when we had ball in hand...?,it’s was only when you were down 3-17 that you managed to get some ball in the hands of Cheslin Kolbe..
They probably had the most dangerous back on the paddock ,but in the first 20 minutes you reverted to Type..
I think they need to Take a bit of responsibility and look at your own teams performance.SA, along with a number of other teams, play old style rugby. Why should they not try to expand their gameplan? I know they tried it a few years ago and gave it away when there was a coaching change. My basic understanding is that at CC level they play much more open, and the Lions Stormers and Sharks certainly try to play open at times. They shouldn't forget that back in the day we were the major exponents of 10 man rugby and at one time Wales led the way with running rugby. Perhaps their fans should ask why they persist with anti-rugby when they should be capable of much more?
Anti-rugby? What a load of rubbish. Ten-man rugby is a perfectly valid style of rugby.
