CWC Final - Black Caps v England
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@MN5 Yep!
Which spinners finished among the top wicket takers?
I think the best was Chahal with 12 - and Mitch out-bowled him in the semi. Tahir, Shakib and Rashid - each with 11. Mitch outbowled Rashid in the final, as well.
Better economy rate than any of them - and pretty much of any spinner that played a major role in the tournament .
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@Chris-B said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Yep!
Which spinners finished among the top wicket takers?
I think the best was Chahal with 12 - and Mitch out-bowled him in the semi. Tahir, Shakib and Rashid - each with 11. Mitch outbowled Rashid in the final , as well.
Better economy rate than any of them - and pretty much of any spinner that played a major role in the tournament .
I suppose those are good points and I'm probably looking a bit with rose tinted specs at what the really good spinners have done in the past. 6 wickets is less than what those guys got and that has to play a part in the final evaluation.
We're probably a bit spoilt in this era. I'd love a spinner who is KW/Rossco/Boult class.
Even Vettori probably wasn't quite that overall.
As others have said it's gonna be fucken tough winning over there in 2023 without a pretty amazing spinner. It's probably too much for our plucky nation to hope for. It'll be tough enough given Guptill and Taylor won't be there although in the formers case this is a good thing.
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@MN5 Yeah - the question is how the run-rate effectiveness of Mitch in this tournament would shape up on Indian pitches - compared to quite how lethal Chahal looked at times.
But, he was definitely pretty good in this tournament.
What would be really cool would be if Mitch could improve his batting to the point where he becomes a genuine top 6 batsman. Ish becomes a world class leggie and Ajaz comes into the equation as a decent option, as well (and Kane continues to bowl decently).
We could have a four-pronged spin attack on the sub-c0ntinent, along with Boult, Henry and Ferguson - and whoever else comes along in the meantime.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Yeah - the question is how the run-rate effectiveness of Mitch in this tournament would shape up on Indian pitches - compared to quite how lethal Chahal looked at times.
But, he was definitely pretty good in this tournament.
What would be really cool would be if Mitch could improve his batting to the point where he becomes a genuine top 6 batsman. Ish becomes a world class leggie and Ajaz comes into the equation as a decent option, as well (and Kane continues to bowl decently).
We could have a four-pronged spin attack on the sub-c0ntinent, along with Boult, Henry and Ferguson - and whoever else comes along in the meantime.
As I said Santner doesn't really get a mark for his batting in the WC. No decent chances and a couple of not outs here and there.
I reckon his efforts with the willow are the key for him down the line as he just isn't quite enough of a frontline spinner for me.
But ok, pretty good is probably a fair assessment. It was the "bloody" in your initial post that triggered me
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Yeah, Santner really should be a top 6 (preferably top 5) batsmen with the bowling figures he returns, should be a better bowler when he currently bats.
Kane is obviously good enough to do Santners job with the ball but I suppose we can't rely on him as he already has a lot of responsibility.
Hopefully we can find a new opener that is a decent spin bowler (or even CdG style), does Will Young bowl?
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@LABCAT said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Yeah, Santner really should be a top 6 (preferably top 5) batsmen with the bowling figures he returns, should be a better bowler when he currently bats.
Kane is obviously good enough to do Santners job with the ball but I suppose we can't rely on him as he already has a lot of responsibility.
Hopefully we can find a new opener that is a decent spin bowler (or even CdG style), does Will Young bowl?
Can he do that though ? Two solitary hundreds in all types of cricket doesn't scream much more than a bowler who can smack it round a bit every now and again.
Vettori was already a better bowler and then developed into a better batsman than Santner currently is.
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@MN5 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Yeah - the question is how the run-rate effectiveness of Mitch in this tournament would shape up on Indian pitches - compared to quite how lethal Chahal looked at times.
But, he was definitely pretty good in this tournament.
What would be really cool would be if Mitch could improve his batting to the point where he becomes a genuine top 6 batsman. Ish becomes a world class leggie and Ajaz comes into the equation as a decent option, as well (and Kane continues to bowl decently).
We could have a four-pronged spin attack on the sub-c0ntinent, along with Boult, Henry and Ferguson - and whoever else comes along in the meantime.
As I said Santner doesn't really get a mark for his batting in the WC. No decent chances and a couple of not outs here and there.
I reckon his efforts with the willow are the key for him down the line as he just isn't quite enough of a frontline spinner for me.
But ok, pretty good is probably a fair assessment. It was the "bloody" in your initial post that triggered me
Actually, he had five not outs
just not much time to do anything with them.
ICC Cricket World Cup, 2019 averages batting bowling by team Records | ESPNcricinfo
Find ICC Cricket World Cup, 2019 averages batting bowling by team records and stats on ESPNcricinfo. Check averages batting bowling by team stats of ICC Cricket World Cup, 2019.
Pretty useful tournament batting at eight - but, I wish he'd hooked that last ball for six, instead of ducking... or even nudged it away for a single....
Kind of assuming he'd set himself up for something else and couldn't make the adjustment.
But, would be bloody handy if he became a genuine top six batsman - and it's not beyond possibility.
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@Chris-B said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Chris-B said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Yeah - the question is how the run-rate effectiveness of Mitch in this tournament would shape up on Indian pitches - compared to quite how lethal Chahal looked at times.
But, he was definitely pretty good in this tournament.
What would be really cool would be if Mitch could improve his batting to the point where he becomes a genuine top 6 batsman. Ish becomes a world class leggie and Ajaz comes into the equation as a decent option, as well (and Kane continues to bowl decently).
We could have a four-pronged spin attack on the sub-c0ntinent, along with Boult, Henry and Ferguson - and whoever else comes along in the meantime.
As I said Santner doesn't really get a mark for his batting in the WC. No decent chances and a couple of not outs here and there.
I reckon his efforts with the willow are the key for him down the line as he just isn't quite enough of a frontline spinner for me.
But ok, pretty good is probably a fair assessment. It was the "bloody" in your initial post that triggered me
Actually, he had five not outs
just not much time to do anything with them.
ICC Cricket World Cup, 2019 averages batting bowling by team Records | ESPNcricinfo
Find ICC Cricket World Cup, 2019 averages batting bowling by team records and stats on ESPNcricinfo. Check averages batting bowling by team stats of ICC Cricket World Cup, 2019.
Pretty useful tournament batting at eight - but, I wish he'd hooked that last ball for six, instead of ducking... or even nudged it away for a single....
Kind of assuming he'd set himself up for something else and couldn't make the adjustment.
But, would be bloody handy if he became a genuine top six batsman - and it's not beyond possibility.
Definitely not. He just needs to get Dan Vettoris details and to pester him night and day.
You're just trying to annoy me by talking up his batting in the tournament though @Chris-B high score of 17 not out ????
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@Bovidae said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Refer back to the 2016 T20 WC tournament in India. Santner and Sodhi were very good in Indian conditions. Santner took 4/11 vs India off his 4 overs and Sodhi 3/18.
pffft that's like saying someone had a good Sevens tourny so let's get them in the ABs !
But seriously, that's a brilliant effort from them both.
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36 hours later..ðŸ˜ðŸ˜…😡🤔😳
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I think some people are underestimating the talent pool and production of New Zealand cricket. Kane is truly special player. I would be surprised if I saw a better player in the black cap.
But the supporting players aren't that level. Boult is a great talent and perhaps a top 10 bowler for us. But we have consistently produced great bowlers. Ferguson's pace will be harder to replace. Hopefully the development work that has supported him will inform future development programmes. Henry is pretty much about average for a New Zealand bowler.
Neesham is a special talent, but power hitting all rounders seems to be our specialty area. (Incidentally, imagine this side with de Grandhomme replaced with a fully fit Corey Anderson).
Taylor is another special talent, and in our ODI side might be harder to replace than Kane. But I'm not convinced that the rest are significantly better than at any other period.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the fern was around in 92 we would probably have said the same thing. And in the 80s when we had Hadlee and Crowe together. And around 2003 as Flem, Astle etc retired.
But actually, every generation we've got better. The freak talents (Hadlee, Crowe, Bond, Kane) might keep coming at same rate, but the talent around them will keep rising.
I'm not predicting a Australian or West Indian period of dominance in another couple of decades. But there will be other teams that have as good or better chances to win major titles.
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@Cyclops said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
I think some people are underestimating the talent pool and production of New Zealand cricket. Kane is truly special player. I would be surprised if I saw a better player in the black cap.
But the supporting players aren't that level. Boult is a great talent and perhaps a top 10 bowler for us. But we have consistently produced great bowlers. Ferguson's pace will be harder to replace. Hopefully the development work that has supported him will inform future development programmes. Henry is pretty much about average for a New Zealand bowler.
Neesham is a special talent, but power hitting all rounders seems to be our specialty area. (Incidentally, imagine this side with de Grandhomme replaced with a fully fit Corey Anderson).
Taylor is another special talent, and in our ODI side might be harder to replace than Kane. But I'm not convinced that the rest are significantly better than at any other period.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the fern was around in 92 we would probably have said the same thing. And in the 80s when we had Hadlee and Crowe together. And around 2003 as Flem, Astle etc retired.
But actually, every generation we've got better. The freak talents (Hadlee, Crowe, Bond, Kane) might keep coming at same rate, but the talent around them will keep rising.
I'm not predicting a Australian or West Indian period of dominance in another couple of decades. But there will be other teams that have as good or better chances to win major titles.
Ever ?
I'd still place Paddles on a higher echelon but KW has a long career to go and that might change......doubtful though, we're talking an all time legendary bowler who had the added bonus of being a decent batsman.
Crowe maybe slightly edges Taylor but that's pretty close.
Latham and Guptill underperformed hugely but the former will prove his worth again especially in the longest form.
Boult would be top three surely behind you know who and Bond. Who else compares ?
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@MN5 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Cyclops said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
I think some people are underestimating the talent pool and production of New Zealand cricket. Kane is truly special player. I would be surprised if I saw a better player in the black cap.
But the supporting players aren't that level. Boult is a great talent and perhaps a top 10 bowler for us. But we have consistently produced great bowlers. Ferguson's pace will be harder to replace. Hopefully the development work that has supported him will inform future development programmes. Henry is pretty much about average for a New Zealand bowler.
Neesham is a special talent, but power hitting all rounders seems to be our specialty area. (Incidentally, imagine this side with de Grandhomme replaced with a fully fit Corey Anderson).
Taylor is another special talent, and in our ODI side might be harder to replace than Kane. But I'm not convinced that the rest are significantly better than at any other period.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the fern was around in 92 we would probably have said the same thing. And in the 80s when we had Hadlee and Crowe together. And around 2003 as Flem, Astle etc retired.
But actually, every generation we've got better. The freak talents (Hadlee, Crowe, Bond, Kane) might keep coming at same rate, but the talent around them will keep rising.
I'm not predicting a Australian or West Indian period of dominance in another couple of decades. But there will be other teams that have as good or better chances to win major titles.
Ever ?
I'd still place Paddles on a higher echelon but KW has a career to go and that might change......doubtful though, we're talking an all time legendary bowler who had the added bonus of being a decent batsman.
Crowe maybe slightly edges Taylor but that's pretty close.
Latham and Guptill underperformed hugely but the former will prove his worth again especially in the longest form.
Boult would be top three surely behind you know who and Bond. Who else compares ?
In my life time (ie that I'll see). There's a bit of projection in there since he's 28, but I think by the time he retires he'll be past Hadlee.
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@Cyclops said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Cyclops said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
I think some people are underestimating the talent pool and production of New Zealand cricket. Kane is truly special player. I would be surprised if I saw a better player in the black cap.
But the supporting players aren't that level. Boult is a great talent and perhaps a top 10 bowler for us. But we have consistently produced great bowlers. Ferguson's pace will be harder to replace. Hopefully the development work that has supported him will inform future development programmes. Henry is pretty much about average for a New Zealand bowler.
Neesham is a special talent, but power hitting all rounders seems to be our specialty area. (Incidentally, imagine this side with de Grandhomme replaced with a fully fit Corey Anderson).
Taylor is another special talent, and in our ODI side might be harder to replace than Kane. But I'm not convinced that the rest are significantly better than at any other period.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if the fern was around in 92 we would probably have said the same thing. And in the 80s when we had Hadlee and Crowe together. And around 2003 as Flem, Astle etc retired.
But actually, every generation we've got better. The freak talents (Hadlee, Crowe, Bond, Kane) might keep coming at same rate, but the talent around them will keep rising.
I'm not predicting a Australian or West Indian period of dominance in another couple of decades. But there will be other teams that have as good or better chances to win major titles.
Ever ?
I'd still place Paddles on a higher echelon but KW has a career to go and that might change......doubtful though, we're talking an all time legendary bowler who had the added bonus of being a decent batsman.
Crowe maybe slightly edges Taylor but that's pretty close.
Latham and Guptill underperformed hugely but the former will prove his worth again especially in the longest form.
Boult would be top three surely behind you know who and Bond. Who else compares ?
In my life time (ie that I'll see). There's a bit of projection in there since he's 28, but I think by the time he retires he'll be past Hadlee.
Time will tell.
At this stage to me KW is still firmly second name down in an all time XI. That's how good Hadlee was......but that's still well ahead of other "kiwi" greats ( I still think Paddles is our one and only "legendary" test player, some other countries might have 15-20 over time ). Then I guess you're gonna get to the whole longevity argument which despite the length of Hadlees career ( 17 years ) he won't be able to compete with given KW is just 14 tests shy of what he finished up with and he has years in reserve.
KW is well and truly on the way to be mentioned in Paddles echelon, no doubt. It's hard to see him being a clear number one though.
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The problem with 2023 is that three teams who aren't a threat have just come into consideration. Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Afghanistan (if they are there) will be much better. I'm not saying Afghanistan will be a threat for the playoffs but I bet they win a game in India. England should still be good in four years. The Aussies and Saffas don't have good spinners lined up but are generally strong.
One problem with NZC is that we are under performing at recent u-19 world cups. That probably has to have some ramifications down the line.
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@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
You're having a little tug on your own whizzer there if you seriously believe the Poms will give a second thought to the way they were awarded this WC. They won't give a flying fuck. It's in the record books, that's all that matters. And we'd feel exactly the same. At most they'll feel mildly sympathetic towards us but they'll feel completely justified in having taken this title, one way or another.
Yeah I walked that one back a little after a bit of reflection. The champagne tastes just the same either way and in a similar situation at the 2011 RWC walking away with the trophy and not screwing it up again would have been enough for most at the time.
But I still wouldn't be surprised if in the fullness of time there is a "yeah but" attached to it which I'm sure will shit them just a little from time to time. With the 1995 RWC example before, if we had held on 2 minutes and won a red card I wouldn't be sure that the guys could dine out on it the same way other teams have... but then again look at Fitzy and they lost.
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