Blues vs Waratahs
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@No-Quarter said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Their young players must be learning so much from playing with perhaps the greatest ever 12 to play the game.
Tim Horan retired years ago
😉
It's a shame we never got to watch Nonu trample all over Horan.
Or trip over himself as Horan skinned him inside and then outside.
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@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
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I'm not saying it is a problem for ABs, but it is noticeable. And it wasn't thuggishness - nasty stuff in play aka mongrel that has gone to far like Franks/Moody or even dumb shit like Nonu/SBW tackles can be - but childish pushing after the penalty has been given, then prancing around. Just like Itoje. If he's pushed the guy whilst the ball was in play, I don't care. But after the whistle, when you've won? Just point at the scoreboard, just seemed lame. I had spent the game talking with the boys and saying he had to be in RWC squad as an unknown impact player - then he acts the prat after it was over.
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@Nepia said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
I thought he was considerably better at the breakdown and on defense than last week.
Anyway, regardless he’s easily the best 8 in NZ at the moment.
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@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Anyway, regardless he’s easily the best 8 in NZ at the moment.
Watching 2011 again; Read was a monster. Wide, fast ball carrying, hard hitting, getting up for kickoffs - just a dominant player.
Hoepfully he can recover some of that form post-back injury. We didn't see it last year , and it's important that he finds form and leads well.
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Which is partly my point. Tim Horan was probably the most consistent Back in World Rugby in the 1990s, but he was done with international Rugby and Super Rugby by the age 30. He played a couple of seasons after that for Saracens when they were a mid -able side.
The longevity of Ma'a Nonu career as well as his haul of international silverware set him from all other midfielders in the modern game.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Which is partly my point. Tim Horan was probably the most consistent Back in World Rugby in the 1990s, but he was done with international Rugby and Super Rugby by the age 30. He played a couple of seasons after that for Saracens when they were a mid -able side.
The longevity of Ma'a Nonu career as well as his haul of international silverware set him from all other midfielders in the modern game.
Nonu has had the benefit of modern training his entire career, so it is a difficult comparison to make if you're talking longevity. The amateur era didn't have nearly the level of conditioning and support players get now. It can't be denied that he's been part of - and contributed significantly to - one of the most dominant sides ever.
I'd point out Horan debuted in 1989 (age 19), won 2 RWCs 8 years apart, and suffered a pretty shocking knee injury in 94 which put a big hold on his career. Though he still won a RWC after that point, he was probably never the same as his sprightly youth. I will always remember that semifinal game against the Boks in 99 where he played a MOTM performance from his sickbed.
It is interesting to compare their Test careers because there are a lot of similarities there - barring Nonu being 15kg heavier at about the same height:
Horan - debuted 19, played 80 Tests (140 points), 2 x RWC (1991; Player of the tournament 1999), last test 2000 (12 seasons). Played about half his career in amateur rules.
Nonu - debuted 21, played 104* Tests (160 points), 2 x RWC (2011; 2015), last test to date 2015 (13 seasons).I'd take either of them, in their pomp, at 12 over SBW.
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Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Australia held the Bledisloe Cup for less than half of Horan's career. Australia won that trophy in 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999 and 2000. But New Zealand held the Bledisloe in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996 and 1997.
In Maa Nonu international tenure the All Blacks won or retained the Bledisloe in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Losing it 0% of the time. Nonu only lost to Australia three times in the 24 tests he played against the Wallabies.
Nonu's record against Australia in World Cups wasn't bad either:
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
I'm not sure you can compare team records for individual perforamnces. Horan was amazingballs, no matter how you cut it. So was Ma'a... of the two I'd take Ma'a, but I'm a one eyed kiwi.
Horan really was good though, and deserves the plaudits he gets
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@nzzp said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
I'm not sure you can compare team records for individual perforamnces. Horan was amazingballs, no matter how you cut it. So was Ma'a... of the two I'd take Ma'a, but I'm a one eyed kiwi.
Horan really was good though, and deserves the plaudits he gets
Up until Ma'a, I'd have said Horan was the best 12 I'd ever seen.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Oh OK then, try this: Nonu was behind a dominant forward pack most of his career, which makes Horan the better player because the Australian didn't get an arm chair ride.
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@Nepia said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
He’s a good Christian is Owen
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Australia held the Bledisloe Cup for less than half of Horan's career. Australia won that trophy in 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999 and 2000. But New Zealand held the Bledisloe in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996 and 1997.
In Maa Nonu international tenure the All Blacks won or retained the Bledisloe in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Losing it 0% of the time. Nonu only lost to Australia three times in the 24 tests he played against the Wallabies.
Nonu's record against Australia in World Cups wasn't bad either:
All that research and it means absolutely nothing when comparing two players.
Gotta love the Fern.
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Not buying that 100% either. Australian pack was solid throughout the Dwyer and MacQueen eras. Horan was excellent, but supported by hard work of John Eales, Tim Gavin, Tony Daly, Phil Kearns, Ewan McKenzie, Willie Ofahengaue and co.
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps? Bert Cooke was apparently one heck of a player but I doubt there is anyone alive who can compare him with the modern 12s.
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@sparky and cooke at less than 65kg would struggle in most 1st 15 mid-fields these days...
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@taniwharugby Indeed. Warwick Taylor was 79 kg when he was second-five eights for the 1987 World Cup winning team, lighter than a lot of 1st XV midfielders now.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps?
No love for Walter Little?
Tough crowd.
P.S.
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Not buying that 100% either
Way to miss the fucking point
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Not buying that 100% either. Australian pack was solid throughout the Dwyer and MacQueen eras. Horan was excellent, but supported by hard work of John Eales, Tim Gavin, Tony Daly, Phil Kearns, Ewan McKenzie, Willie Ofahengaue and co.
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps? Bert Cooke was apparently one heck of a player but I doubt there is anyone alive who can compare him with the modern 12s.
Did you ever watch Charlie Ngatai????
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@MajorRage he doesnt count, unfair on everyone else.
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@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Could do with his physicality against the NH packs IMO .
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@Machpants i've never ever seen Akira penalised for his niggle. So who cares?
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@Kirwan said in Blues vs Waratahs:
King Akira! Running hard.
Did he knock it on?
Good to see him for once build up a head of steam before collecting.
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@Tim said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Think that game showed the importance of Gibson's leadership. We really seemed to go off the boil when he went off the field.
Replaced your 10 about the same time for an HIA, yes? Bit of disruption there, plus you didn't have the ball for a lot of minutes 20-40.
Think the balance of our loosies suffered with DP and TR as no genuine 7.
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@nzzp said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Well, hell yeah. We won, and we ground it out. Really stoked with this; this was winning ugly. Bunch of top of head thoughts below
Blake Gibson very influential; when we went off, it all fell apart. At 17-0 after 17, we were on track for a cricket score.
I really don't see the negativity for Otere on here either - he's a decent kicker, has god length on his punts, and has kept the team structure. Not setting the world on fire, but not disasterous at all either.
Ma'a I spoke about above. Great at this level, but he's showing age. Wonderful to have him though
Both Ioane's seemed subdued tonight. Maybe the minutes catching up?
Ruru can't box kick to save his life. it was terrible. Our exits were abysmal all night, and we have to work on it.
Set piece marginally OK. Better than last week.
Forwards generally - take a bow fellas I reckon you stepped up and won that for us, particularly at the end. That three minutes seemed way to long to try and run the clock, but by god you got there. Well bloody done. I wouldn't have been that brave - would have put it down in the corner and taken our chances.
Ref was a mixed bag of good adn 'interesting'. Some of the people picking up balls where counter rucks have happened ... or 'in from the side ignored'. Well, most weeks that shit happens.
We're building nicely. Patches of good play starting to extend, and linking a few wins together. Last week was special against a very good pack, this week was bloody gritty resilient stubbornness. Haven't seen that out on Eden Park for the Blues for as long as I can remember.
If we don't sort our lineout we are really going to struggle against top teams. Is Scrafton our best lineout 5?
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@nzzp said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Edit: I'm a massive fan, but wouldn't have him in the AB squad. Reckon he'd get torn apart at the top level.
How about training squad -- Laumape could learn a lot?!
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Their young players must be learning so much from playing with perhaps the greatest ever 12 to play the game.
Tim Horan retired years ago
😉
Two best of professional era.
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@No-Quarter said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Their young players must be learning so much from playing with perhaps the greatest ever 12 to play the game.
Tim Horan retired years ago
😉
It's a shame we never got to watch Nonu trample all over Horan.
Or trip over himself as Horan skinned him inside and then outside.
Was in same lift as Timmy before 3rd Lions test. Quite a small fella now. Loved it when after his almost terminal knee injury Oz played him everywhere but 12 for a long time. Just superb in RWC semi against Boks.
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
I will always remember that semifinal game against the Boks in 99 where he played a MOTM performance from his sickbed.
I was there. Me, too. He and Nonu are unchallenged as two best since 1987.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@Nepia said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
He’s a good Christian is Owen
As is St. Owen of Farrell.
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Geez pretty harsh people knocking Nonu's pace for the try. Those were no slouches chasing him and they didn't even get within diving distance, they certainly didn't look to be gaining on him very quick if at all.
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@Bones said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Geez pretty harsh people knocking Nonu's pace for the try. Those were no slouches chasing him and they didn't even get within diving distance, they certainly didn't look to be gaining on him very quick if at all.
Didn't have much of a head start, tho he was at full pace while the others had to turn.
Though I'll qualify all that by reminding you that he's still probably faster than most Aussie backs (because we have zero gas men).
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@Bones said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@NTA Foley doesn't lack for pace, who was the 23?
Lalakai Foketi.
Foley was well behind Nonu to start with.
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@Bones Yeah found it strange too. Don't get me wrong he has slowed down a bit but yeah, people are trying to find reasons to suggest why he shouldn't be considered for the next level if they're targeting his pace during that try.
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@Bones said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Geez pretty harsh people knocking Nonu's pace for the try. Those were no slouches chasing him and they didn't even get within diving distance, they certainly didn't look to be gaining on him very quick if at all.
It's not just that - he's been noticeably slow this year. He apparently said himself that he ran out of gas with 10 to go and dived.
You see it when he makes one of those scything angled runs; early 30's Ma'a keeps going; Current Ma'a gets tackled by Super level players. At the top level that gap will be even worse.
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@African-Monkey said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@Bones Yeah found it strange too. Don't get me wrong he has slowed down a bit but yeah, people are trying to find reasons to suggest why he shouldn't be considered for the next level if they're targeting his pace during that try.
Have a look at some of the earlier games against Kiwi sides. At least twice (once at 12, another at 13) he got ran around by Ennor and a flanker, and was left grasping at air.
He's playing great, but pace still matters at the next level up. If he can play like that against the Kiwi sides, and not get exposed again, then maybe he could still do it. It would be a great story, but I worry about selecting too many centres will potential injury concerns. Crotty, SBW and Nonu? Personally, I would only select Crotty from those three, and he's almost certain to get injured.
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