Blues vs Waratahs
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Which is partly my point. Tim Horan was probably the most consistent Back in World Rugby in the 1990s, but he was done with international Rugby and Super Rugby by the age 30. He played a couple of seasons after that for Saracens when they were a mid -able side.
The longevity of Ma'a Nonu career as well as his haul of international silverware set him from all other midfielders in the modern game.
Nonu has had the benefit of modern training his entire career, so it is a difficult comparison to make if you're talking longevity. The amateur era didn't have nearly the level of conditioning and support players get now. It can't be denied that he's been part of - and contributed significantly to - one of the most dominant sides ever.
I'd point out Horan debuted in 1989 (age 19), won 2 RWCs 8 years apart, and suffered a pretty shocking knee injury in 94 which put a big hold on his career. Though he still won a RWC after that point, he was probably never the same as his sprightly youth. I will always remember that semifinal game against the Boks in 99 where he played a MOTM performance from his sickbed.
It is interesting to compare their Test careers because there are a lot of similarities there - barring Nonu being 15kg heavier at about the same height:
Horan - debuted 19, played 80 Tests (140 points), 2 x RWC (1991; Player of the tournament 1999), last test 2000 (12 seasons). Played about half his career in amateur rules.
Nonu - debuted 21, played 104* Tests (160 points), 2 x RWC (2011; 2015), last test to date 2015 (13 seasons).I'd take either of them, in their pomp, at 12 over SBW.
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Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Australia held the Bledisloe Cup for less than half of Horan's career. Australia won that trophy in 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999 and 2000. But New Zealand held the Bledisloe in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996 and 1997.
In Maa Nonu international tenure the All Blacks won or retained the Bledisloe in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Losing it 0% of the time. Nonu only lost to Australia three times in the 24 tests he played against the Wallabies.
Nonu's record against Australia in World Cups wasn't bad either:
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
I'm not sure you can compare team records for individual perforamnces. Horan was amazingballs, no matter how you cut it. So was Ma'a... of the two I'd take Ma'a, but I'm a one eyed kiwi.
Horan really was good though, and deserves the plaudits he gets
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@nzzp said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
I'm not sure you can compare team records for individual perforamnces. Horan was amazingballs, no matter how you cut it. So was Ma'a... of the two I'd take Ma'a, but I'm a one eyed kiwi.
Horan really was good though, and deserves the plaudits he gets
Up until Ma'a, I'd have said Horan was the best 12 I'd ever seen.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Oh OK then, try this: Nonu was behind a dominant forward pack most of his career, which makes Horan the better player because the Australian didn't get an arm chair ride.
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@Nepia said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Hmmm. He was better in his last game - TBF that was probably one of his quieter matches (while still being influential).
@Machpants said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@SammyC then right at the end he had to slap some body for no reason after they'd got the penalty and big up to the crowd. He's like itoje. Not sure what the and coaches will think of that cos they notice
They put up with Franks' thuggishness so not sure that would hinder Akira.
He’s a good Christian is Owen
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Ok, lets compare who held the Bledisloe Cup in their international careers.
Australia held the Bledisloe Cup for less than half of Horan's career. Australia won that trophy in 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999 and 2000. But New Zealand held the Bledisloe in 1990, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1996 and 1997.
In Maa Nonu international tenure the All Blacks won or retained the Bledisloe in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. Losing it 0% of the time. Nonu only lost to Australia three times in the 24 tests he played against the Wallabies.
Nonu's record against Australia in World Cups wasn't bad either:
All that research and it means absolutely nothing when comparing two players.
Gotta love the Fern.
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Not buying that 100% either. Australian pack was solid throughout the Dwyer and MacQueen eras. Horan was excellent, but supported by hard work of John Eales, Tim Gavin, Tony Daly, Phil Kearns, Ewan McKenzie, Willie Ofahengaue and co.
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps? Bert Cooke was apparently one heck of a player but I doubt there is anyone alive who can compare him with the modern 12s.
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@sparky and cooke at less than 65kg would struggle in most 1st 15 mid-fields these days...
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@taniwharugby Indeed. Warwick Taylor was 79 kg when he was second-five eights for the 1987 World Cup winning team, lighter than a lot of 1st XV midfielders now.
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps?
No love for Walter Little?
Tough crowd.
P.S.
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Not buying that 100% either
Way to miss the fucking point
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@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Not buying that 100% either. Australian pack was solid throughout the Dwyer and MacQueen eras. Horan was excellent, but supported by hard work of John Eales, Tim Gavin, Tony Daly, Phil Kearns, Ewan McKenzie, Willie Ofahengaue and co.
Subjective, I know. Nonu's best 12 I've seen. Horan the next best. Daylight after that to any else. Warrick Taylor or Scott Gibbs or Will Greenwood perhaps? Bert Cooke was apparently one heck of a player but I doubt there is anyone alive who can compare him with the modern 12s.
Did you ever watch Charlie Ngatai????
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@MajorRage he doesnt count, unfair on everyone else.
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@SammyC said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Best game I’ve seen Akira play I reckon.. he’s becoming the big bully that the all blacks could use in their loose trio.
Hope the blues waste the chiefs next weekend.
Could do with his physicality against the NH packs IMO .
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@Tim said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Think that game showed the importance of Gibson's leadership. We really seemed to go off the boil when he went off the field.
Replaced your 10 about the same time for an HIA, yes? Bit of disruption there, plus you didn't have the ball for a lot of minutes 20-40.
Think the balance of our loosies suffered with DP and TR as no genuine 7.
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@nzzp said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Well, hell yeah. We won, and we ground it out. Really stoked with this; this was winning ugly. Bunch of top of head thoughts below
Blake Gibson very influential; when we went off, it all fell apart. At 17-0 after 17, we were on track for a cricket score.
I really don't see the negativity for Otere on here either - he's a decent kicker, has god length on his punts, and has kept the team structure. Not setting the world on fire, but not disasterous at all either.
Ma'a I spoke about above. Great at this level, but he's showing age. Wonderful to have him though
Both Ioane's seemed subdued tonight. Maybe the minutes catching up?
Ruru can't box kick to save his life. it was terrible. Our exits were abysmal all night, and we have to work on it.
Set piece marginally OK. Better than last week.
Forwards generally - take a bow fellas I reckon you stepped up and won that for us, particularly at the end. That three minutes seemed way to long to try and run the clock, but by god you got there. Well bloody done. I wouldn't have been that brave - would have put it down in the corner and taken our chances.
Ref was a mixed bag of good adn 'interesting'. Some of the people picking up balls where counter rucks have happened ... or 'in from the side ignored'. Well, most weeks that shit happens.
We're building nicely. Patches of good play starting to extend, and linking a few wins together. Last week was special against a very good pack, this week was bloody gritty resilient stubbornness. Haven't seen that out on Eden Park for the Blues for as long as I can remember.
If we don't sort our lineout we are really going to struggle against top teams. Is Scrafton our best lineout 5?
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@NTA said in Blues vs Waratahs:
@sparky said in Blues vs Waratahs:
Their young players must be learning so much from playing with perhaps the greatest ever 12 to play the game.
Tim Horan retired years ago
😉
Two best of professional era.
