Blues vs Stormers
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About the Red Card.
I understand the current rules/regs/laws.
I just think they are wrong.
Telea went looking to catch the ball. Realised the opposition was in the air and tried to pull out.
I find it hard to believe that was even a card let alone four weeks.
Who created the issue? Leyds jumping into space.
Not sure they have this issue correct yet.
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@Bones said in Blues vs Stormers:
@pakman said in Blues vs Stormers:
@nzzp said in Blues vs Stormers:
@pakman said in Blues vs Stormers:
@taniwharugby said in Blues vs Stormers:
@KiwiMurph is an automatic visit to the headmasters office...guess it depends if World Rugby intervene to quash the card....wont hold my breath
It OUGHT to be taken into account that Stormer lifted his knees very high, meaning that if he made ANY contact he was going to tumble. Reckless. Further sanction not justified.
All this is what we want the laws to be, not what they are. The interpretation is very clear; what Telea did was clumsy and/or reckless, but intent doesn't matter. Telea's options were to pull out early and tackle the player when they hit the ground, or go up and contest.
What you are not allowed to do is to run into that zone on the ground, which is what he did. As soon as you do that, and contact the player, it's always a yellow/red.
Whilst I think you capture the current 'official' thinking, it must be the fact that in some cases an oncoming player's trajectory will be unpredictably horizontal, as opposed to vertical, and if the distance is large between takeoff and landing, and the approach rapid, an opposition player could readily be (and sometimes is) unable to avoid the oncoming player short of diving out of the way. In such an instance, if he can't dive away in time his only option would appear to be to try and catch the player!!
I'd have to watch the incident again, but I'm not sure the 'official' options were feasible on this occasion.
What? That makes no sense. The other logical option you seem to be missing in your scenario is to not come rushing in out of control and oblivious to your surroundings.
As much as I hate some of the unfair rulings with players in the air, with this one you are quite correct. Telea entered the 'zone' without being aware until too late AND had time (although not much) to try and mitigate his error.
The example with BB posted above is one of the ones I don't like. Both players entered the 'zone' where the ball was coming down on their feet but BB jumped high only a metre away from the other player. He should have some responsibility for his own safety and not try and leap over someone at the last moment.It's a really difficult one to find a ruling that is both fair and clear for refs and I guess what we have is what we have where it basically expects players to put themselves in the air or keep well away.
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@booboo said in Blues vs Stormers:
About the Red Card.
I understand the current rules/regs/laws.
I just think they are wrong.
Telea went looking to catch the ball. Realised the opposition was in the air and tried to pull out.
I find it hard to believe that was even a card let alone four weeks.
Who created the issue? Leyds jumping into space.
Not sure they have this issue correct yet.
This is lazy. So you're saying if Tele'a hadn't been there, Leyds would still have gone arse over tit?
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@Bones no.
I'm saying Telea was looking at the ball thinking he was in a position to catch it until he looked up and saw Leyds had beaten him in the air and then he tried to pull out.
It's not lazy.
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@booboo said in Blues vs Stormers:
@Bones no.
I'm saying Telea was looking at the ball thinking he was in a position to catch it until he looked up and saw Leyds had beaten him in the air and then he tried to pull out.
It's not lazy.
Right, so players can do as they wish now with the defence of "but I was looking at the ball"? Tele'a should have been more aware shouldn't he, rather than thinking that the ball is the only thing to worry about.
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@Bones said in Blues vs Stormers:
@booboo said in Blues vs Stormers:
@Bones no.
I'm saying Telea was looking at the ball thinking he was in a position to catch it until he looked up and saw Leyds had beaten him in the air and then he tried to pull out.
It's not lazy.
Right, so players can do as they wish now with the defence of "but I was looking at the ball"? Tele'a should have been more aware shouldn't he, rather than thinking that the ball is the only thing to worry about.
Isn’t that exactly what Leyds was doing? Only worrying about the ball, not the contact he was potentially putting himself into?
I don’t think the balance is right at the moment. Fucked if i know the answer though. No jumping? Everyone must jump? No jumping forward while running? Catcher with both feet on the ground has right of way? No of them ideal but neither is red carding a guy could have caught the ball if it wasn’t for another guy flying at his head.
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@pukunui good point - but it's pretty easy to argue Leyds had been aware of his surroundings and judged he could safely catch the ball - as long as no-one blindly ran into the space underneath where he was jumping and illegally took out his legs.
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I want to see a player race at the ball and come to a complete stop ready to catch the ball only to be taken out by a player flying through the air. And the jumping player suspended for weeks.
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The only thing Tele'a did wrong is he did not jump. If he had fair competition for the ball. He should know this it's been reffed like this for nearly 5 years now. If not he has 4 weeks now to work on this. If you try and take a high ball with your feet on the ground you risk a card.
Jump every single time.
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@mooshld said in Blues vs Stormers:
The only thing Tele'a did wrong is he did not jump. If he had fair competition for the ball. He should know this it's been reffed like this for nearly 5 years now. If not he has 4 weeks now to work on this. If you try and take a high ball with your feet on the ground you risk a card.
Jump every single time.
And that's the idiocy of the rule in my opinion. The law is written that for their to be a contest, both players must jump for it, and all benefit of doubt is given to the guy in the air.
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@MajorRage said in Blues vs Stormers:
@mooshld said in Blues vs Stormers:
The only thing Tele'a did wrong is he did not jump. If he had fair competition for the ball. He should know this it's been reffed like this for nearly 5 years now. If not he has 4 weeks now to work on this. If you try and take a high ball with your feet on the ground you risk a card.
Jump every single time.
And that's the idiocy of the rule in my opinion. The law is written that for their to be a contest, both players must jump for it, and all benefit of doubt is given to the guy in the air.
"Rugby is a game played on your feet" - except when you dive head first into rucks and are expected to jump high in the air.
The Law simply says that it is dangerous to play someone in the air. It is the silly interpretation that decrees that someone can leap high and late over a player that is looking to catch the ball while on his feet and the other guy takes all the responsibility.
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Now watched it quite a few times. About half a second before impact both players about the same distance from ball. If Tele'a had jumped like Leyds he would have had the same chance of catching the ball, but more likely there would have been one hell of a midair collision and one of them would have been quite badly hurt. Leyds jumped quite late but did not have 'the rights'. I really think Tele'a would have had to have defied the laws of physics to have been able to avoid Leyds from that point (i.e. the late jump). He put his hands up not to contest the ball but rather to protect himself/try and cushion Leyd's fall.
Where I think it fails the red card test is the requirement to be 'whilst being a reckless or deliberate foul play action'. In my opinion what Tele'a did was neither reckless nor foul. In fact if there was any recklessness it was on the part of Leyds.
As @mooshld said his 'mistake' under the current refereeing was not to jump. But quite frankly encouraging both players to have jumped like Leyds is both crazy and would be highly dangerous.
I would have absolutely no problem giving top refs more discretion in these matters.
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@pakman
You could tell he knew he'd got it wrong & tried to pull out but sadly it was too late. The issue I have is that if Leyds lands on his feet, Tele'a would've got a yellow card & nothing more. It shouldn't be about the result, it should be about the action & the action in this case was not malicious in nature or overtly reckless -
Seems like the rules have removed the contest a bit IMO. Maybe the compromise is that you are allowed to tackle them in the air, but have to bring them down safely like with a tackle.
Remove some of the grey area, Tele'a would still be a red. But under my version, he could have grabbed at Leyd and helped bring him down safely, tackled.
The player can then judge the risk, and the defender doesn't get unfairly punished for a small amount of contact caused by the jumping player.
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Argument could be made for a yellow based on the below guidelines?
Law 9.17 (Dangerous Play - A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground) with the following guidelines:
Play on - Fair challenge with both players in a realistic position to catch the ball. Even if the player(s) land(s) dangerously, play on
Penalty only - Fair challenge with wrong timing - no pulling down
Yellow card - Not a fair challenge, there is no contest and the player is pulled down landing on his back or side
Red card - It's not a fair challenge, with no contest, whilst being a reckless or deliberate foul play action and the player lands in a dangerous position -
Ban. The. Box. Kick.
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@mariner4life How? Must pass from a ruck before a kick?
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