2020 All Blacks Squad
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@shark said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
An area we're sorely lacking in as things stand is grunt from the loose forward group. We have a proliferation of world-class openside flankers we seem to want to shoe-horn in ala Pooper and Smith/Waugh as we lack depth at 6, and as of 2020 we have a dire hole at 8 as well. (Still not dire enough to try Ioane though). Savea is an openside flanker, as of course is Cane. We need a couple of chunky lads in 6 and 8. Maybe Squire comes back and that helps, but we need a Fifita or Frizzell to stake a legit claim and/or a Blackadder to break through in SR. It's noticeable that throughout our game, loose forwards and locks are 'shrinking'. We first see our midget packs get beaten up by SA and England in the U20s and this has started to translate into the senior ranks. We have far too many blindside flankers playing as under sized locks in Super Rugby and even moreso in the NPC, and too few 8s and 6s regularly playing in those positions who have genuine size (around 1.92m+) and bulk. We also have stuff all 2m+ locks coming through (compared to around 10 - 15 years ago when we were flush in that department) and our openside flankers are on average getting smaller I reckon. Look at the emerging talent like Harmon and Kirifi. Harmon replaces another midget in Todd. Dillon Hunt isn't big either.
10-15 years our locks were rubbish, we had Ali and Jack and fuck all else. It wasn’t until Brad Thorn came back and Whitelock came onto the scene that we actually got decent there. Luckily BBBR followed BBBT so there was no drop off.
As far as i know Squire is off overseas too. Which is good because he definitely isn’t the answer to any questions we should be asking.
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@geebee said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Kirwan said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@canefan worst sort of woke drivel. Pick people for any job based on their ability, not sex or race.
like that happens in the real world.
I didn’t say it did. I’m saying what I think should be our aim.
Picking people based on race is a huge step backwards.
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@geebee said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Kirwan said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@canefan worst sort of woke drivel. Pick people for any job based on their ability, not sex or race.
like that happens in the real world.
which coach was picked on their race not their ability?
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so will Joseph or Rennie fulfill the 'quota' of Coaches?
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@taniwharugby I selected the woke-est of coaching teams a week ago which covers all bases. Will keep the "merit" blokes happy and ensure 'representation of minorities (in coaching terms)' at AB level
.Rennie (PI, North Islander), Joseph (Maori, South Islander), Robertson (Pakeha and former Crusader player).
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@pukunui said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@shark said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
An area we're sorely lacking in as things stand is grunt from the loose forward group. We have a proliferation of world-class openside flankers we seem to want to shoe-horn in ala Pooper and Smith/Waugh as we lack depth at 6, and as of 2020 we have a dire hole at 8 as well. (Still not dire enough to try Ioane though). Savea is an openside flanker, as of course is Cane. We need a couple of chunky lads in 6 and 8. Maybe Squire comes back and that helps, but we need a Fifita or Frizzell to stake a legit claim and/or a Blackadder to break through in SR. It's noticeable that throughout our game, loose forwards and locks are 'shrinking'. We first see our midget packs get beaten up by SA and England in the U20s and this has started to translate into the senior ranks. We have far too many blindside flankers playing as under sized locks in Super Rugby and even moreso in the NPC, and too few 8s and 6s regularly playing in those positions who have genuine size (around 1.92m+) and bulk. We also have stuff all 2m+ locks coming through (compared to around 10 - 15 years ago when we were flush in that department) and our openside flankers are on average getting smaller I reckon. Look at the emerging talent like Harmon and Kirifi. Harmon replaces another midget in Todd. Dillon Hunt isn't big either.
10-15 years our locks were rubbish, we had Ali and Jack and fuck all else. It wasn’t until Brad Thorn came back and Whitelock came onto the scene that we actually got decent there. Luckily BBBR followed BBBT so there was no drop off.
As far as i know Squire is off overseas too. Which is good because he definitely isn’t the answer to any questions we should be asking.
The point being made isn't about whether we have world class 2m+ locks, but SR capable 2m+ locks, or are we generally a bit smaller than in that period. In and around the period I've mentioned we had Jack, Williams, Ryan (briefly), Eaton, Clarke, O'Neill, Donnelly, Ross and then Whitelock and Retallick emerging. If someone had the time and inclination to do the analysis I reckon the stats would back up my assertion. How many 2m+ guys will play SR next year? Or even 1.98m+ guys. And then how many games will Blackwell, Hemopo, Frizzell, Parete, Fifita etc etc play at lock?
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@Kirwan said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@shark to your credit, not including paragraphs in your posts does make them read slightly deranged which matches the content nicely.
Multiple posters, from different franchises, are making similar points now. And we’ve been discussing his workload for over 18 months now, a weird claim to say that’s recent.
Need to read more than just the Crusader posts.
No idea what you're on about re excluding paragraphs. Whatever comes through when I hit the 'quote' button, comes through. Maybe you need a technician in?
This isn't a Crusaders player we're talking about, and he's not even in competition with a Crusaders player for the All Blacks, yet you're alluding to a franchise bias. And I'm deranged?
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@shark said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@Kirwan said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@shark to your credit, not including paragraphs in your posts does make them read slightly deranged which matches the content nicely.
Multiple posters, from different franchises, are making similar points now. And we’ve been discussing his workload for over 18 months now, a weird claim to say that’s recent.
Need to read more than just the Crusader posts.
No idea what you're on about re excluding paragraphs. Whatever comes through when I hit the 'quote' button, comes through. Maybe you need a technician in?
This isn't a Crusaders player we're talking about, and he's not even in competition with a Crusaders player for the All Blacks, yet you're alluding to a franchise bias. And I'm deranged?
Quite possibly if you don't remember bringing in journeymen like Whetu Douglas to the conversation.
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The recent RWC has shown that there is a need of hard, abrasive forwards. Dalton Papali'i and Luke Jacobson would fill this role perfectly IMO. Questions could be raised about the lock stocks in NZ. Who has this profile ? IWL maybe, I don't see many others.
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We've go huge issues at lock. Retallic on holiday. Whitelock looking like he needs a holiday. Barrett wouldn't start for any of our rivals. Patty T just isn't coming along. Behind that there is zilch.
Front row is a WIP, but our main point of difference in Coles is on the downhill side of his career. The answer at 6 is not found. We don't have an 8 (you could argue we have barely had one for a year, but that would be churlish). Couple of very good but very different 7s is our strength at the moment.
The new coach is going to have to start all over again. It really does feel like 2003 doesn't it?
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@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
The new coach is going to have to start all over again. It really does feel like 2003 doesn't it?
God, I hope.
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@antipodean said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
The new coach is going to have to start all over again. It really does feel like 2003 doesn't it?
God, I hope.
that was a pretty good reset.
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Yep, plenty of work needed.
I think our props are in reasonable shape, but at hooker it would nice if Aumua improved his throwing and stepped into the third spot. Apart from that, we’ll have to use some older legs.
At lock, I agree that we are in trouble. In fact I think it’s the only place where we are in dire need of a real effort. I’d look at Parkinson straight away and I think next year we should put pressure on Pat T to bring it at international level consistently. That cupboard is bare - Scott Barrett is not Brad Thorn. I don’t mind him off the bench or as a stop gap option, but he’s hardly a world class starting lock.
I’m less concerned about 8 and even 6 now that there is less time pressure to find the answer. Right away, we could use Frizell, Cane, and Ardie. Outside of that, Papalii will get his chance and I think he could have a big future playing a similar 6/7 role off the bench (and starting the future), plus Jacobson of course if he doesn’t have head trouble. He looks very Readish - I won’t be surprised to see him at 8 soon. Plus, its up to Akira whether he wants it or not and this year will be crucial. Personally I think this could be an area of strength if we get the selections right.
Outside of that, we have no huge issues at HB, but it would be nice if a youngster started putting some pressure on the older guys, and of course a young first five (or two) are needed, plus one new midfielder (I like the Waikato boy for the future here).
Outside backs are never a problem, although a world class fullback would be nice to have - perhaps Jordie will develop, but he is, and will remain on my shit list for quite some time. Jordan will be likely to get a look in here at some stage, either at FB or right wing.
So, we should get significantly younger and that’s probably a good thing. The biggest issue is getting a coaching plan that makes use of our forwards in the middle, but that’s a different story.
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@cgrant said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
The recent RWC has shown that there is a need of hard, abrasive forwards. Dalton Papali'i and Luke Jacobson would fill this role perfectly IMO. Questions could be raised about the lock stocks in NZ. Who has this profile ? IWL maybe, I don't see many others.
I like Jacobson's hardness and work ethic but in terms of providing some size at 6 or 8 (which is a thing people seem to be concerned about), he doesn't seem huge. Chiefs list him as 103kg/189cm but he obviously wore heels for the All Blacks, who have him at 107kg/191cm.
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@mariner4life said in 2020 All Blacks Squad:
Patty T just isn't coming along.
I thought he made some big progress this year after the nutrition change. He should've gotten more game time
