NZ All Time XI
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@dogmeat said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
When looking at the credentials of any of the old timers you have to factor in that the players around them were all shite (in the main). Club cricketers with if they were luck one or two who might get a look in to today's team.
JRR would be ideally suited to the modern game and has to be considered for the all-rounders spot in our all time 11 (Hadlee not really being a true all-rounder).
JFR did the typical Kiwi thing of starting off really well. He retired before we found out if he was going to do that other Kiwi thing of rapidly turning to shit / getting found out and ending up with a career average in the mid 30's.
Anyways if the England test papered over the cracks, then the decorator is on double time. We are still more than a bit average but two great results!!!
I suspect JF Reid with a FC average of 38 would have been found out. I remember the fantastic start that Mark Greatbatch had. You could argue Henry Nicholls did that too.
KW DEFINITELY has/had better teammates than Paddles ever did.
Paddles averaged more with the bat than John Morrison and Jeff Crowe for goodness sake.
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@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Rapido said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
Didn't realise JF Reid had passed away.
Neither, he would have been quite young still.
64 apparently. Cancer.
And I have to disagree with @crucial. Can't see JFR on Mt Rushmore. I'm struggling to see him in the 1st XI.
I can understand that we never really watched him but his batting stats are right up there if you were assembling a lineup. Would you really not select a player with our second highest batting average (over 30 innings). Higher than M Crowe and only below KW? Centuries playing away in Oz, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Yes. He batted 3. He's behind KW, Crowe bats at 4, Roscoe has to drop to 5.
Reid was good, but not great.
And your openers are? Richardson? and ?
Sutcliffe?
Not Reid.
You'll note I purposely avoided naming openers.
I'm inclined to nominate Latham, but feel I'm influenced by recency bias.
I think the point I was making in my initial post was that we as a nation only have what I’d consider two all time legends of the game. A host of “very good” players would make up the rest of our all time XI.
Our neighbours across the ditch on the other hand would have to leave out some legendary batsmen. How do you get Bradman, Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh in the same side ?
England, Australia and the Windies would, at a guess, have about 15-20 of that talent level in their history.
India ? There’d be a few batsmen but fuck all bowlers.
Pakistan and SA would have a few.
Sri Lanka ? Murali, Sangakarra, Jayawardene would be about it.
Personally I have Bond up there with KW and Hadlee. I know he didn't play enough games due to contracts and injury, but he was absolutely unplayable. Accurate, and swinging it a mile at 150+ clicks, making world class batsmen look silly.
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@No-Quarter said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Rapido said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
Didn't realise JF Reid had passed away.
Neither, he would have been quite young still.
64 apparently. Cancer.
And I have to disagree with @crucial. Can't see JFR on Mt Rushmore. I'm struggling to see him in the 1st XI.
I can understand that we never really watched him but his batting stats are right up there if you were assembling a lineup. Would you really not select a player with our second highest batting average (over 30 innings). Higher than M Crowe and only below KW? Centuries playing away in Oz, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Yes. He batted 3. He's behind KW, Crowe bats at 4, Roscoe has to drop to 5.
Reid was good, but not great.
And your openers are? Richardson? and ?
Sutcliffe?
Not Reid.
You'll note I purposely avoided naming openers.
I'm inclined to nominate Latham, but feel I'm influenced by recency bias.
I think the point I was making in my initial post was that we as a nation only have what I’d consider two all time legends of the game. A host of “very good” players would make up the rest of our all time XI.
Our neighbours across the ditch on the other hand would have to leave out some legendary batsmen. How do you get Bradman, Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh in the same side ?
England, Australia and the Windies would, at a guess, have about 15-20 of that talent level in their history.
India ? There’d be a few batsmen but fuck all bowlers.
Pakistan and SA would have a few.
Sri Lanka ? Murali, Sangakarra, Jayawardene would be about it.
Personally I have Bond up there with KW and Hadlee. I know he didn't play enough games due to contracts and injury, but he was absolutely unplayable. Accurate, and swinging it a mile at 150+ clicks, making world class batsmen look silly.
I certainly don’t disagree with ANY of the above. He was amazing but, again, just 18 tests.
He also only played a total of 60 first class matches which is surprising. Paddles played 342 for numbers even better than his test returns.
But when Bond DID actually play it was so satisfying that our scary pace bowler was better than Australia’s ( Brett Lee )
It’s definitely fair to say he probably would have had a better career than Boult, Southee etc if he had been injury free.
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@dogmeat said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
When looking at the credentials of any of the old timers you have to factor in that the players around them were all shite (in the main). Club cricketers with if they were luck one or two who might get a look in to today's team.
JRR would be ideally suited to the modern game and has to be considered for the all-rounders spot in our all time 11 (Hadlee not really being a true all-rounder).
JFR did the typical Kiwi thing of starting off really well. He retired before we found out if he was going to do that other Kiwi thing of rapidly turning to shit / getting found out and ending up with a career average in the mid 30's.
Anyways if the England test papered over the cracks, then the decorator is on double time. We are still more than a bit average but two great results!!!
Yeah. JFR well over-performed his career FC average, when playing at test level. Would expected him to revert more to his expected average of mid to late 30s if he played a longer career.
Good player of spin.
Short career. Missed some tours/seasons and retired early due to work.
Missed playing the 1980s Windies on all 3 occasions.Good player, not really a great. Would rate lower than Congdon or Coney IMO, definitely below Wright.
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@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@No-Quarter said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Rapido said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
Didn't realise JF Reid had passed away.
Neither, he would have been quite young still.
64 apparently. Cancer.
And I have to disagree with @crucial. Can't see JFR on Mt Rushmore. I'm struggling to see him in the 1st XI.
I can understand that we never really watched him but his batting stats are right up there if you were assembling a lineup. Would you really not select a player with our second highest batting average (over 30 innings). Higher than M Crowe and only below KW? Centuries playing away in Oz, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Yes. He batted 3. He's behind KW, Crowe bats at 4, Roscoe has to drop to 5.
Reid was good, but not great.
And your openers are? Richardson? and ?
Sutcliffe?
Not Reid.
You'll note I purposely avoided naming openers.
I'm inclined to nominate Latham, but feel I'm influenced by recency bias.
I think the point I was making in my initial post was that we as a nation only have what I’d consider two all time legends of the game. A host of “very good” players would make up the rest of our all time XI.
Our neighbours across the ditch on the other hand would have to leave out some legendary batsmen. How do you get Bradman, Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh in the same side ?
England, Australia and the Windies would, at a guess, have about 15-20 of that talent level in their history.
India ? There’d be a few batsmen but fuck all bowlers.
Pakistan and SA would have a few.
Sri Lanka ? Murali, Sangakarra, Jayawardene would be about it.
Personally I have Bond up there with KW and Hadlee. I know he didn't play enough games due to contracts and injury, but he was absolutely unplayable. Accurate, and swinging it a mile at 150+ clicks, making world class batsmen look silly.
I certainly don’t disagree with ANY of the above. He was amazing but, again, just 18 tests.
He also only played a total of 60 first class matches which is surprising. Paddles played 342 for numbers even better than his test returns.
But when Bond DID actually play it was so satisfying that our scary pace bowler was better than Australia’s ( Brett Lee )
It’s definitely fair to say he probably would have had a better career than Boult, Southee etc if he had been injury free.
He was amazing. Apart from Hadlee the most destructive kiwi quick I've ever seen. But he gets marked down for longevity for me. Can't put a guy on the mountain top based on potential. But if he'd stayed fit he definitely had the chance to be one of the greats. For now I'd class him as a great*
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@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Rapido said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
Didn't realise JF Reid had passed away.
Neither, he would have been quite young still.
64 apparently. Cancer.
And I have to disagree with @crucial. Can't see JFR on Mt Rushmore. I'm struggling to see him in the 1st XI.
I can understand that we never really watched him but his batting stats are right up there if you were assembling a lineup. Would you really not select a player with our second highest batting average (over 30 innings). Higher than M Crowe and only below KW? Centuries playing away in Oz, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Yes. He batted 3. He's behind KW, Crowe bats at 4, Roscoe has to drop to 5.
Reid was good, but not great.
And your openers are? Richardson? and ?
Sutcliffe?
Not Reid.
You'll note I purposely avoided naming openers.
I'm inclined to nominate Latham, but feel I'm influenced by recency bias.
I think the point I was making in my initial post was that we as a nation only have what I’d consider two all time legends of the game. A host of “very good” players would make up the rest of our all time XI.
Our neighbours across the ditch on the other hand would have to leave out some legendary batsmen. How do you get Bradman, Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh in the same side ?
England, Australia and the Windies would, at a guess, have about 15-20 of that talent level in their history.
India ? There’d be a few batsmen but fuck all bowlers.
Pakistan and SA would have a few.
Sri Lanka ? Murali, Sangakarra, Jayawardene would be about it.
I think Jayawardene would only rank the next level down - especially if that's where you're slotting Marty Crowe.
South Africa - Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock would make the top level, I think - which makes me wonder whether Bondy should as well. What's the line from Bladerunner about burning very bright?
Shaun Pollock, Kallis, Donald, Mike Proctor, ABdV, Dale Steyn - all would go close - Kallis a certainty.
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@Chris-B said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
which makes me wonder whether Bondy should as well. What's the line from Bladerunner about burning very bright?
If we make exceptions for Bond because of injury and T20 league machinations, we also do for Jack "Had he been an Australian, he might have been termed a wonder of the age. - Wisden" Cowie because of the impact of WWII.
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@canefan said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@TeWaio said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
KW is so far and away our best ever batsman it’s not even funny…..
Look, Rossco, Crowe, Turner etc were all fine players but he’s on another level.
Him and Hadlee are the two names on our Mt Rushmore.
Tangent, who actually is our 4th Mt Rushmore after Kane, Hadlee and Crowe? I'm tempted to go with Baz.
Turner. 41 tests with an average of 44, 41 ODIs with an average of 47 at a time when 200 was considered a big score
That seems like a good metric (if it could be actionable).
Average as a percentage of team/generation average score would go some way to smoothing differences.
So if the average score in a test innings between 1973-1978 was 200 and someone averaged 48 during that time, they’d get 48 (24) and if in another case the average between 2012 -2020 was 350 and they averaged 55, they’d get 55 (16).
Big difference between scoring (roughly) 24% of a teams run versus 16%.
Now that I type that, I assuming that this is probably calculated somewhere (or something similar), but I cant be bothered deleting. If someone can me towards a similar metric, if be keen to see it.
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@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Rapido said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
Didn't realise JF Reid had passed away.
Neither, he would have been quite young still.
64 apparently. Cancer.
And I have to disagree with @crucial. Can't see JFR on Mt Rushmore. I'm struggling to see him in the 1st XI.
I can understand that we never really watched him but his batting stats are right up there if you were assembling a lineup. Would you really not select a player with our second highest batting average (over 30 innings). Higher than M Crowe and only below KW? Centuries playing away in Oz, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Yes. He batted 3. He's behind KW, Crowe bats at 4, Roscoe has to drop to 5.
Reid was good, but not great.
And your openers are? Richardson? and ?
Sutcliffe?
Not Reid.
You'll note I purposely avoided naming openers.
I'm inclined to nominate Latham, but feel I'm influenced by recency bias.
I think the point I was making in my initial post was that we as a nation only have what I’d consider two all time legends of the game. A host of “very good” players would make up the rest of our all time XI.
Our neighbours across the ditch on the other hand would have to leave out some legendary batsmen. How do you get Bradman, Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh in the same side ?
England, Australia and the Windies would, at a guess, have about 15-20 of that talent level in their history.
India ? There’d be a few batsmen but fuck all bowlers.
Pakistan and SA would have a few.
Sri Lanka ? Murali, Sangakarra, Jayawardene would be about it.
I think Jayawardene would only rank the next level down - especially if that's where you're slotting Marty Crowe.
South Africa - Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock would make the top level, I think - which makes me wonder whether Bondy should as well. What's the line from Bladerunner about burning very bright?
Shaun Pollock, Kallis, Donald, Mike Proctor, ABdV, Dale Steyn - all would go close - Kallis a certainty.
Possibly debatable. The career average of a shade under 50 doesn’t help his cause.
For the Windies off the top of my head and kind of in chronological order you’d have Weekes, Worrell, Walcott, Sobers, Richards, Garner, Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Ambrose and Lara as the Mt Rushmore players. Feel free to add any glaring omissions
Others possibly borderline would be Lloyd, Croft, Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson, Bishop, Walsh, Chanderpaul and Headley ( short career )
The current team don’t have anyone close to that level
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Crucial said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@Rapido said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
@booboo said in Blackcaps v Sri Lanka:
Didn't realise JF Reid had passed away.
Neither, he would have been quite young still.
64 apparently. Cancer.
And I have to disagree with @crucial. Can't see JFR on Mt Rushmore. I'm struggling to see him in the 1st XI.
I can understand that we never really watched him but his batting stats are right up there if you were assembling a lineup. Would you really not select a player with our second highest batting average (over 30 innings). Higher than M Crowe and only below KW? Centuries playing away in Oz, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Yes. He batted 3. He's behind KW, Crowe bats at 4, Roscoe has to drop to 5.
Reid was good, but not great.
And your openers are? Richardson? and ?
Sutcliffe?
Not Reid.
You'll note I purposely avoided naming openers.
I'm inclined to nominate Latham, but feel I'm influenced by recency bias.
I think the point I was making in my initial post was that we as a nation only have what I’d consider two all time legends of the game. A host of “very good” players would make up the rest of our all time XI.
Our neighbours across the ditch on the other hand would have to leave out some legendary batsmen. How do you get Bradman, Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh in the same side ?
England, Australia and the Windies would, at a guess, have about 15-20 of that talent level in their history.
India ? There’d be a few batsmen but fuck all bowlers.
Pakistan and SA would have a few.
Sri Lanka ? Murali, Sangakarra, Jayawardene would be about it.
I think Jayawardene would only rank the next level down - especially if that's where you're slotting Marty Crowe.
South Africa - Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock would make the top level, I think - which makes me wonder whether Bondy should as well. What's the line from Bladerunner about burning very bright?
Shaun Pollock, Kallis, Donald, Mike Proctor, ABdV, Dale Steyn - all would go close - Kallis a certainty.
Possibly debatable. The career average of a shade under 50 doesn’t help his cause.
I agree with you over 11000 test runs, next best at 7000, for me anyway.. him and Sangakkara stand out like proverbial dogs balls for batting. Murali is the third head, but a long way back to their next in both batting and bowling
For me the next layer down would be adding someone like Jayasuria but that would be more focusing on his contribution to ODIs as well
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@MN5 Lance Gibbs and Jeff Dujon probably in the borderline - but, you've got most of them. Not sure Bishop quite makes the grade.
There's some older guys - Ramadhin and Valentine, Wes Hall, Rohan Kanhai, Seymour Nurse - but, none probably contenders for their Rushmore.
Sobers and Richards would be the first two carved - I'd have Holding and Marshall, but probably others wouldn't.
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@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 Lance Gibbs and Jeff Dujon probably in the borderline - but, you've got most of them. Not sure Bishop quite makes the grade.
There's some older guys - Ramadhin and Valentine, Wes Hall, Rohan Kanhai, Seymour Nurse - but, none probably contenders for their Rushmore.
Sobers and Richards would be the first two carved - I'd have Holding and Marshall, but probably others wouldn't.
But then how do you leave out Lara, Ambrose ( whom I have seen and know to be legends ) or the three Ws ( Google them )
Impossible task.
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 Lance Gibbs and Jeff Dujon probably in the borderline - but, you've got most of them. Not sure Bishop quite makes the grade.
There's some older guys - Ramadhin and Valentine, Wes Hall, Rohan Kanhai, Seymour Nurse - but, none probably contenders for their Rushmore.
Sobers and Richards would be the first two carved - I'd have Holding and Marshall, but probably others wouldn't.
But then how do you leave out Lara, Ambrose ( whom I have seen and know to be legends ) or the three Ws ( Google them )
Impossible task.
How do you not even mention Joel Garner?
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@Higgins said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 Lance Gibbs and Jeff Dujon probably in the borderline - but, you've got most of them. Not sure Bishop quite makes the grade.
There's some older guys - Ramadhin and Valentine, Wes Hall, Rohan Kanhai, Seymour Nurse - but, none probably contenders for their Rushmore.
Sobers and Richards would be the first two carved - I'd have Holding and Marshall, but probably others wouldn't.
But then how do you leave out Lara, Ambrose ( whom I have seen and know to be legends ) or the three Ws ( Google them )
Impossible task.
How do you not even mention Joel Garner?
Thank you for reinforcing my point. NZ have two and it’s a scramble for four. The Windies have a battle to narrow it down to four.
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For that 4th spot on NZ's Mt Rushmore. Jack Cowie would have a claim as he was probably the best in the world in his position (seam/fast bowling) for a period of x years. A statsguru query backs it up, with only competition from Lindwall (an all time great) in the post-war years (the final third, or fag-end, of Cowie's 12 year career span).
Shane Bond, no matter how much I rate him, would never have been the best in the world even if injury or ICL free, as his peak coincided with McGrath.
But, probably, McCullum would have a very good claim as he rates highly (top 5 or better) on so many NZ metrics. Runs scored, wicket-keeping, captaincy etc. Even areas where he is considered a 'relative failure'; e.g. as an opening batsman - he is in NZ's top 4 or 5 for both runs scored or average etc.
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On a tangent, as a kid I played football in a team and one of the kids' grandads coached the team and I never liked him because he was soooo old and just let his grandson play wherever he wanted. Dad mentioned he played a few games for NZ, it was Jack Cowie...
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@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
He was a tall bugger, solid built even in his 80s. I could imagine him being a real terror in his prime
Jack Cowie
Known as “The Bull”, Cowie was New Zealand’s first great test bowler and ranked with the world’s best.
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@Rapido said in NZ All Time XI:
For that 4th spot on NZ's Mt Rushmore. Jack Cowie would have a claim as he was probably the best in the world in his position (seam/fast bowling) for a period of x years. A statsguru query backs it up, with only competition from Lindwall (an all time great) in the post-war years (the final third, or fag-end, of Cowie's 12 year career span).
Shane Bond, no matter how much I rate him, would never have been the best in the world even if injury or ICL free, as his peak **coincided with McGrath.
**
But, probably, McCullum would have a very good claim as he rates highly (top 5 or better) on so many NZ metrics. Runs scored, wicket-keeping, captaincy etc. Even areas where he is considered a 'relative failure'; e.g. as an opening batsman - he is in NZ's top 4 or 5 for both runs scored or average etc.Yes but assuming Crowe is the third name on there we need to agree that Border, Chappell, Richards etc were better than he was. Other like Gooch, Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson, Gower etc were around his level.
