2019 School Rugby
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Yep, at least four viewpoints from schools:
- the school(s) doing the poaching
- the schools having to play the school(s) doing the poaching
- the schools that lose players due to poaching
- the schools playing the schools losing players due to poaching
Then there's the perspective from the poached players & their families; the perspective from players staying behind in the team arguably weakened by poaching; the perspective from the provincial competition the poaching school takes part in; the perspective from the provincial competition the poached school takes part in (if different); the perspective of the sports councils responsible for the respective competitions and the Top Four; and the perspective of NZR.
It's a complex problem with a lot of potential consequences. It needs to be sorted out. No matter how important school rugby is for the development of (professional) rugby in NZ, schools are first and foremost educational institutions that should produce young people with sufficient basic qualifications, because only a small fraction of students will make it in professional sports. That should IMO be the most important consideration. Apart from that, I'm siding with the individual players as well as the poorer/no name schools that lose players due to poaching (and those two sides can have conflicting interests).
By the way, even if Scott's College are guilty of the same kind of poaching as some of the Auckland Schools, it hasn't helped them much in recent years. They can't win the Wellington Premiership, let alone the Hurricanes championship. They get smashed on a regular basis, by schools they possibly poach from.
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'Poaching' is a technicality. The only way a school can be caught doing this is if a staff member/employee of the school is caught, with evidence i.e. and eye-witness who will testify who witnessed the approach.
If they get another person/kid/friend anyone not employed by the school to say "I think you should contact the school" it is not classified as poaching. Schools can then say that they are not 'actively' recruiting players using this, as long as it can be proved the first contact was made by the parent.
You can see how easy it is to get around the rules. In my time involved in 1st XV rugby I have seen many accusations but only one that has gone even close to being upheld.
I guarantee that all schools do this to some degree but it is 'within' the rules which are incredibly loose and impossible to enforce.
Good watching though! -
@taniwharugby Of course Hodge wouldn't lie, being the principal of a good Presbyterian school.
If a school is poaching a talented rugby player from another school for only year 13 you can't say it's for a better education.
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@98blueandgold sure there will be some parent of a poached kid who will not be happy with how things have panned out for their kid and could tell all.
@Bovidae I was more saying it is a big jump from someone doing this and staying silent than going on national radio and blatantly lying...my point was nothing to do with a principal or type of school.
I went to Whangarei Boys High, never anything to do with St. Kent's so dont really care and it isn't like this poaching/recruiting is a new thing, it's just 1st 15 rugby is on TV now.
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Just watched Chris Grinter from RBHS on TV and had to laugh. I'm not against kids changing schools but he comes across as the moral police is classic! The only reason they are upset is that it is now happening to them! They have spent the last 20 years recruiting players from 'lesser' schools and have been stated that it is the opportunity their schools provide and then get upset when it happens to them? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Moral highground aside I think its important from the players at the schools as well.
When I was at Lindisfarne had a mate who got kicked out of Kings, his dad was loaded sent him down to our school (this was in 5th form).
He came down to watch our 1st 15 trials at the end of it he was talking to our coach about paying to get 3 big islanders one at hooker/prop one loosey and a big midfielder. The coach turned it down and none of us as players wanted it because we had played for the school from 3rd form (some from form 1) and had earnt the right.
I get it if a kid randomly comes on his own or parents shift to a new area thats different. When you put in hard work and have pride for the school and jersey you don't want to see yourself or mates miss out on the chance to play 1st 15.
For the record it would have been pointless as we stil would have had a million points put on us by very good HBHS and NBHS.
Wanganui Collegiate imported some big po po's into their first 15 from memory. Pretty sure that was the case and one went on one of his high school years to play for wanganui in 3rd div.
Scots and St Kents both played as in yearly quads and scots didn't win their first game in it until 2002 (they happened to beat us after having 10 starters injured a week earlier). St Kents weren't amazing when we played them either they were usually challanged by STAC.
Was surprised a few years later to see Scots and St Kents in National Finals.
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Does anyone know how many rugby teams St Kents has compared to the other 1A schools?
My understanding is that they don't have that many teams in the lower grades so have less players to develop from year 9 that can become future 1st XV players. If that is correct, they have a very top-heavy structure.
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@98blueandgold said in 2019 School Rugby:
Just watched Chris Grinter from RBHS on TV and had to laugh. I'm not against kids changing schools but he comes across as the moral police is classic! The only reason they are upset is that it is now happening to them! They have spent the last 20 years recruiting players from 'lesser' schools and have been stated that it is the opportunity their schools provide and then get upset when it happens to them? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That really does highlight the hypocrisy across the board of this issue.
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When Kevin Fallon was at MAGS they had a football academy that attracted the best players from all over NZ. Their 1st XI dominated the national tournaments. This was before the current principal's time but it does highlight this was/is happening in all sports and a lot of schools.
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@98blueandgold said in 2019 School Rugby:
'Poaching' is a technicality. The only way a school can be caught doing this is if a staff member/employee of the school is caught, with evidence i.e. and eye-witness who will testify who witnessed the approach.
If they get another person/kid/friend anyone not employed by the school to say "I think you should contact the school" it is not classified as poaching. Schools can then say that they are not 'actively' recruiting players using this, as long as it can be proved the first contact was made by the parent.
You can see how easy it is to get around the rules. In my time involved in 1st XV rugby I have seen many accusations but only one that has gone even close to being upheld.
I guarantee that all schools do this to some degree but it is 'within' the rules which are incredibly loose and impossible to enforce.
Good watching though!Absolutely the way it is done. It is easy to achieve and impossible to prove. When the Principal says "we don't poach" they don't mean "we don't take poached players", they mean "my staff don't personally do the poaching".
I've seen a boy at the school I was teaching at approached pretty every year by "interested parties", to change to a Boys High School. The BHS knew it was happening, but they didn't care, since they personally were not doing the approaching. We had a rather dodgy sports director for a while who used to have some contacts he relied on to do this stuff for him, and he would indicate the boy he wanted them to target (not rugby, but a sport we were national level competitive in). It was blatant, but unprovable.
The more aggressive schools simply go to the islands. Since that is not poaching, it is perfectly legal. And so some NZ kid misses out to an islander (and I've seen a few come over that barely speak English).
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@chester-draws said in 2019 School Rugby:
@98blueandgold said in 2019 School Rugby:
'Poaching' is a technicality. The only way a school can be caught doing this is if a staff member/employee of the school is caught, with evidence i.e. and eye-witness who will testify who witnessed the approach.
If they get another person/kid/friend anyone not employed by the school to say "I think you should contact the school" it is not classified as poaching. Schools can then say that they are not 'actively' recruiting players using this, as long as it can be proved the first contact was made by the parent.
You can see how easy it is to get around the rules. In my time involved in 1st XV rugby I have seen many accusations but only one that has gone even close to being upheld.
I guarantee that all schools do this to some degree but it is 'within' the rules which are incredibly loose and impossible to enforce.
Good watching though!Absolutely the way it is done. It is easy to achieve and impossible to prove. When the Principal says "we don't poach" they don't mean "we don't take poached players", they mean "my staff don't personally do the poaching".
I've seen a boy at the school I was teaching at approached pretty every year by "interested parties", to change to a Boys High School. The BHS knew it was happening, but they didn't care, since they personally were not doing the approaching. We had a rather dodgy sports director for a while who used to have some contacts he relied on to do this stuff for him, and he would indicate the boy he wanted them to target (not rugby, but a sport we were national level competitive in). It was blatant, but unprovable.
The more aggressive schools simply go to the islands. Since that is not poaching, it is perfectly legal. And so some NZ kid misses out to an islander (and I've seen a few come over that barely speak English).
that was happening before rugby was a career, so i can imagine it's even worse now.
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@chris now that to me seems a strange decision.
School-wise and rugby-wise it doesnt seem to make a huge deal of sense.
So lets say St. Kents didnt 'poach/recruit' him, but him and his family approached St.K to go there, what sort of thing can they offer him, at that age to make his last year of school and rugby better than staying in Christchurch, where the path to M10 Cup, Super rugby and potentially ABs would seem the better choice...
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@chris there is a little more to this story around why he left but again not sure if Christs are the greatest example to choose. Along with St Andrews are the two worst schools for buying in players and targeting other UC championship team players.
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What I don't like about this (aside from the hypocrisy) is that it targets the kids, not just the ones who are coming in and who they want stood down for big matches, but also the other ones in the team who are having their rugby program ripped to shreds through no fault of their own. It doesn't sit right with me.
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@98blueandgold Rotorua did win the National comp that year too but had no one selected in the NZSS squad. Most were not eligible due to the New Zealand Schools eligibility criteria.
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@98blueandgold haha yes there is. I had the guy who’s missus he shagged in my team this year
