Ireland vs All Blacks (2018)
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@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@billy-tell said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Backstabbers or boys done good: how do All Blacks view Celtic Kiwis?
Concept of scouring the world for players is one that is little loved in New Zealand
He did a wind up piece for the NZ audience 'not within the spirit of the game' etc etc
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12159079&ref=rss
The 5 year rule has killed the project player thing. What Ireland is doing now is scouting mainly in England for players who are already Irish qualified. Their centre Will Addison is an example.
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@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
The 5 year rule hasn't killed project players, they'll just grab them younger, I reckon
If you can predict 5 years out that a young player will be international quality and remain injury free, fair play to you. If an 18 or 19 year old already decides he’s washed up in nz and wants to set his sail for Ireland or Scotland etc then good riddance.
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I'm more talking about the Islanders that go to French academies early teens, then they count as French for WR and FRU. If they don't make the grade, they are discarded. NRL does the same thing, picking up talented players early, happy to drop a whole pile of coal for one diamond
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@act-crusader oooh. new spin.
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@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
I'm more talking about the Islanders that go to French academies early teens, then they count as French for WR and FRU. If they don't make the grade, they are discarded. NRL does the same thing, picking up talented players early, happy to drop a whole pile of coal for one diamond
Only if the French academies also recruit the parents. A teen (U18) away from the family home doesn't count towards residency. See PI scholarships kids in NZ.
The 5 year rule is actually a big difference, and the 'they'll just recruit them younger' counter argument is uninformed.
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@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@billy-tell said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Concept of scouring the world for players is one that is little loved in New Zealand
He did a wind up piece for the NZ audience 'not within the spirit of the game' etc etc
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12159079&ref=rss
What a load of bollocks. Didn't even bother to research how Aki landed in Connacht, never mind that he's playing 12 for Ireland. As for mainstay in midfield, I'm sure Henshaw and Ringrose might beg to differ. Addison and Farrell aren't too shabby either. But the journalist had a "story" to tell and a theme to pursue I realise.
The scouring the world for project players schtick is also wide of the mark given the investment the IRFU is putting into the IQ programme. And as for "Irish tactic harming world rugby", a quick look at the numbers might tell a different story.
The number of SH-born players currently in Six Nations clubs/provinces is 567. That includes professional players in four competitions - Top14, Premiership, PRO14 and the French second division PRO D2. It excludes the two SA teams in PRO14 for obvious reasons.
There's 443 SH-born players out of a total of 2,014 players in the 3 top leagues - covering all 38 teams/senior squads and the club academies in UK & Ireland. French teams don't provide as much details on their young academy players so don't have those numbers/births..
France has 311 SH-born - 55%
England 147 - 26%
Ireland 31 - 5.5%
Wales 31 - 5.5%
Scotland 26 - 4.6%
Italy 20 - 3.5%The top 12 birth-countries for players playing outside their country are:
SA - 137; NZ - 117; AUS - 63; ENG - 47; FIJ - 39; IRL - 29; TON - 27; WAL - 28; SCO - 25; ARG - 25; GEO - 24; SAM - 18; and France has just 6,SH birth countries include - Aus, Arg, Fiji, Namibia, NZ, SA, Samoa, Tonga, Zimbabwe, Tahiti, Trinidad & Tobago, Wallis & Fortuna, Uruguay, Colombia
NH birth countries include - Scot, Eng, Irl, Wal, Italy, Fra, Germany, USA, Canada, Netherlands, Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Monaco, St Lucia, Romania, Albania, Guinea, Russia, Nigeria, Hong Kong, Moldova, Cameroon, Burka Fasino, Ghana.
More specifically, the PRO14 which involves Ireland, Italy, Scotland & Wales has 727 players across 12 teams - average 61 players including their academies. Of those:
Home country-born - 551 - 76%
SH-born - 108 - 15%
NH-born - 68 - 9%In Ireland, there are 31 SH-born players which includes the likes of Carbery, with Irish parents who moved at 10, Niyi Adeolokun who moved from Nigeria at 9, and some with parents/grandparents such as Reidy, Bent, Bealham, etc. The split of 50 foreign-born players is NZ/SA/Eng 13 each, Aus 4, and ones from Fra, Spa, US, Can, Geo, etc who largely moved when they were kids with Irish parents in most cases.
As Billy Tell notes above the IRFU focus has largely shifted to using the Exiles branch in the UK and tracking already qualified Irish talent there and in France. Latest new cap, Will Addison, born in England, Irish mother, and had a break clause in his Sale contract, that if an opportunity arose with getting a contract in an Irish province, he could take it. It did and he did.
The numbers of SH-born players has been dropping in Ireland in the last 3 years. Yes of course, there are still some players who could residency qualify such as Jamison Gibson Park next July, assuming his Leinster contract is renewed, although Murray has now re-signed until 2021. Jean Kleyn, a SA lock at Munster is another, although there's at least 5 ahead of him in the queue. Lowe might or might not make it given his age and health issues - he wouldn't be available for selection until Six Nations 2021 - assuming he wants to renew/is offered contract in 2020. He's not a nominated project player and could get a better offer like Te'o did going to England. The others are standard club players - so far on performance anyway.
The remaining already capped foreign players contracts such as Fardy, Taute, van der Merwe finish next June and can't be renewed. Plus there'll be some likely retirements such as Tom McCartney in Connacht who's 34 next year. I reckon by season-end, there'll be less than five players who aren't Irish-qualified in Irish rugby. Assuming that others aren't hired in the meantime of course.
The IRFU announced today that it had sold some investment land property that will realise them at minimum $NZ45m and probably rising to $55/60m that gives IRFU "the opportunity to progress investment options which will, in addition to securing a new realisable asset, produce an additional, long term income stream to support further development of the domestic grass roots game on this island, in the decades to come. It is also envisaged that a portion of the proceeds will be provided for new club and playing facilities development programmes."
But I suppose that kind of financial long-term investment in the domestic game wouldn't fit with the 'scouring the world" angle that Gregor Paul decided to latch lazily onto.
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@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@billy-tell said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Concept of scouring the world for players is one that is little loved in New Zealand
He did a wind up piece for the NZ audience 'not within the spirit of the game' etc etc
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12159079&ref=rss
Disgraceful behaviour, they should be ashamed .
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@derm-mccrum said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@billy-tell said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Concept of scouring the world for players is one that is little loved in New Zealand
He did a wind up piece for the NZ audience 'not within the spirit of the game' etc etc
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12159079&ref=rss
What a load of bollocks. Didn't even bother to research how Aki landed in Connacht, never mind that he's playing 12 for Ireland. As for mainstay in midfield, I'm sure Henshaw and Ringrose might beg to differ. Addison and Farrell aren't too shabby either. But the journalist had a "story" to tell and a theme to pursue I realise.
The scouring the world for project players schtick is also wide of the mark given the investment the IRFU is putting into the IQ programme. And as for "Irish tactic harming world rugby", a quick look at the numbers might tell a different story.
The number of SH-born players currently in Six Nations clubs/provinces is 567. That includes professional players in four competitions - Top14, Premiership, PRO14 and the French second division PRO D2. It excludes the two SA teams in PRO14 for obvious reasons.
There's 443 SH-born players out of a total of 2,014 players in the 3 top leagues - covering all 38 teams/senior squads and the club academies in UK & Ireland. French teams don't provide as much details on their young academy players so don't have those numbers/births..
France has 311 SH-born - 55%
England 147 - 26%
Ireland 31 - 5.5%
Wales 31 - 5.5%
Scotland 26 - 4.6%
Italy 20 - 3.5%The top 12 birth-countries for players playing outside their country are:
SA - 137; NZ - 117; AUS - 63; ENG - 47; FIJ - 39; IRL - 29; TON - 27; WAL - 28; SCO - 25; ARG - 25; GEO - 24; SAM - 18; and France has just 6,SH birth countries include - Aus, Arg, Fiji, Namibia, NZ, SA, Samoa, Tonga, Zimbabwe, Tahiti, Trinidad & Tobago, Wallis & Fortuna, Uruguay, Colombia
NH birth countries include - Scot, Eng, Irl, Wal, Italy, Fra, Germany, USA, Canada, Netherlands, Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Monaco, St Lucia, Romania, Albania, Guinea, Russia, Nigeria, Hong Kong, Moldova, Cameroon, Burka Fasino, Ghana.
More specifically, the PRO14 which involves Ireland, Italy, Scotland & Wales has 727 players across 12 teams - average 61 players including their academies. Of those:
Home country-born - 551 - 76%
SH-born - 108 - 15%
NH-born - 68 - 9%In Ireland, there are 31 SH-born players which includes the likes of Carbery, with Irish parents who moved at 10, Niyi Adeolokun who moved from Nigeria at 9, and some with parents/grandparents such as Reidy, Bent, Bealham, etc. The split of 50 foreign-born players is NZ/SA/Eng 13 each, Aus 4, and ones from Fra, Spa, US, Can, Geo, etc who largely moved when they were kids with Irish parents in most cases.
As Billy Tell notes above the IRFU focus has largely shifted to using the Exiles branch in the UK and tracking already qualified Irish talent there and in France. Latest new cap, Will Addison, born in England, Irish mother, and had a break clause in his Sale contract, that if an opportunity arose with getting a contract in an Irish province, he could take it. It did and he did.
The numbers of SH-born players has been dropping in Ireland in the last 3 years. Yes of course, there are still some players who could residency qualify such as Jamison Gibson Park next July, assuming his Leinster contract is renewed, although Murray has now re-signed until 2021. Jean Kleyn, a SA lock at Munster is another, although there's at least 5 ahead of him in the queue. Lowe might or might not make it given his age and health issues - he wouldn't be available for selection until Six Nations 2021 - assuming he wants to renew/is offered contract in 2020. He's not a nominated project player and could get a better offer like Te'o did going to England. The others are standard club players - so far on performance anyway.
The remaining already capped foreign players contracts such as Fardy, Taute, van der Merwe finish next June and can't be renewed. Plus there'll be some likely retirements such as Tom McCartney in Connacht who's 34 next year. I reckon by season-end, there'll be less than five players who aren't Irish-qualified in Irish rugby. Assuming that others aren't hired in the meantime of course.
The IRFU announced today that it had sold some investment land property that will realise them at minimum $NZ45m and probably rising to $55/60m that gives IRFU "the opportunity to progress investment options which will, in addition to securing a new realisable asset, produce an additional, long term income stream to support further development of the domestic grass roots game on this island, in the decades to come. It is also envisaged that a portion of the proceeds will be provided for new club and playing facilities development programmes."
But I suppose that kind of financial long-term investment in the domestic game wouldn't fit with the 'scouring the world" angle that Gregor Paul decided to latch lazily onto.
Tl;dr . You poach .
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@jegga said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@derm-mccrum said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@billy-tell said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Concept of scouring the world for players is one that is little loved in New Zealand
He did a wind up piece for the NZ audience 'not within the spirit of the game' etc etc
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12159079&ref=rss
What a load of bollocks. Didn't even bother to research how Aki landed in Connacht, never mind that he's playing 12 for Ireland. As for mainstay in midfield, I'm sure Henshaw and Ringrose might beg to differ. Addison and Farrell aren't too shabby either. But the journalist had a "story" to tell and a theme to pursue I realise.
The scouring the world for project players schtick is also wide of the mark given the investment the IRFU is putting into the IQ programme. And as for "Irish tactic harming world rugby", a quick look at the numbers might tell a different story.
The number of SH-born players currently in Six Nations clubs/provinces is 567. That includes professional players in four competitions - Top14, Premiership, PRO14 and the French second division PRO D2. It excludes the two SA teams in PRO14 for obvious reasons.
There's 443 SH-born players out of a total of 2,014 players in the 3 top leagues - covering all 38 teams/senior squads and the club academies in UK & Ireland. French teams don't provide as much details on their young academy players so don't have those numbers/births..
France has 311 SH-born - 55%
England 147 - 26%
Ireland 31 - 5.5%
Wales 31 - 5.5%
Scotland 26 - 4.6%
Italy 20 - 3.5%The top 12 birth-countries for players playing outside their country are:
SA - 137; NZ - 117; AUS - 63; ENG - 47; FIJ - 39; IRL - 29; TON - 27; WAL - 28; SCO - 25; ARG - 25; GEO - 24; SAM - 18; and France has just 6,SH birth countries include - Aus, Arg, Fiji, Namibia, NZ, SA, Samoa, Tonga, Zimbabwe, Tahiti, Trinidad & Tobago, Wallis & Fortuna, Uruguay, Colombia
NH birth countries include - Scot, Eng, Irl, Wal, Italy, Fra, Germany, USA, Canada, Netherlands, Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Monaco, St Lucia, Romania, Albania, Guinea, Russia, Nigeria, Hong Kong, Moldova, Cameroon, Burka Fasino, Ghana.
More specifically, the PRO14 which involves Ireland, Italy, Scotland & Wales has 727 players across 12 teams - average 61 players including their academies. Of those:
Home country-born - 551 - 76%
SH-born - 108 - 15%
NH-born - 68 - 9%In Ireland, there are 31 SH-born players which includes the likes of Carbery, with Irish parents who moved at 10, Niyi Adeolokun who moved from Nigeria at 9, and some with parents/grandparents such as Reidy, Bent, Bealham, etc. The split of 50 foreign-born players is NZ/SA/Eng 13 each, Aus 4, and ones from Fra, Spa, US, Can, Geo, etc who largely moved when they were kids with Irish parents in most cases.
As Billy Tell notes above the IRFU focus has largely shifted to using the Exiles branch in the UK and tracking already qualified Irish talent there and in France. Latest new cap, Will Addison, born in England, Irish mother, and had a break clause in his Sale contract, that if an opportunity arose with getting a contract in an Irish province, he could take it. It did and he did.
The numbers of SH-born players has been dropping in Ireland in the last 3 years. Yes of course, there are still some players who could residency qualify such as Jamison Gibson Park next July, assuming his Leinster contract is renewed, although Murray has now re-signed until 2021. Jean Kleyn, a SA lock at Munster is another, although there's at least 5 ahead of him in the queue. Lowe might or might not make it given his age and health issues - he wouldn't be available for selection until Six Nations 2021 - assuming he wants to renew/is offered contract in 2020. He's not a nominated project player and could get a better offer like Te'o did going to England. The others are standard club players - so far on performance anyway.
The remaining already capped foreign players contracts such as Fardy, Taute, van der Merwe finish next June and can't be renewed. Plus there'll be some likely retirements such as Tom McCartney in Connacht who's 34 next year. I reckon by season-end, there'll be less than five players who aren't Irish-qualified in Irish rugby. Assuming that others aren't hired in the meantime of course.
The IRFU announced today that it had sold some investment land property that will realise them at minimum $NZ45m and probably rising to $55/60m that gives IRFU "the opportunity to progress investment options which will, in addition to securing a new realisable asset, produce an additional, long term income stream to support further development of the domestic grass roots game on this island, in the decades to come. It is also envisaged that a portion of the proceeds will be provided for new club and playing facilities development programmes."
But I suppose that kind of financial long-term investment in the domestic game wouldn't fit with the 'scouring the world" angle that Gregor Paul decided to latch lazily onto.
Tl;dr . You poach .
Thanks Gregor
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@derm-mccrum said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@jegga said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@derm-mccrum said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@machpants said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@billy-tell said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Concept of scouring the world for players is one that is little loved in New Zealand
He did a wind up piece for the NZ audience 'not within the spirit of the game' etc etc
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12159079&ref=rss
What a load of bollocks. Didn't even bother to research how Aki landed in Connacht, never mind that he's playing 12 for Ireland. As for mainstay in midfield, I'm sure Henshaw and Ringrose might beg to differ. Addison and Farrell aren't too shabby either. But the journalist had a "story" to tell and a theme to pursue I realise.
The scouring the world for project players schtick is also wide of the mark given the investment the IRFU is putting into the IQ programme. And as for "Irish tactic harming world rugby", a quick look at the numbers might tell a different story.
The number of SH-born players currently in Six Nations clubs/provinces is 567. That includes professional players in four competitions - Top14, Premiership, PRO14 and the French second division PRO D2. It excludes the two SA teams in PRO14 for obvious reasons.
There's 443 SH-born players out of a total of 2,014 players in the 3 top leagues - covering all 38 teams/senior squads and the club academies in UK & Ireland. French teams don't provide as much details on their young academy players so don't have those numbers/births..
France has 311 SH-born - 55%
England 147 - 26%
Ireland 31 - 5.5%
Wales 31 - 5.5%
Scotland 26 - 4.6%
Italy 20 - 3.5%The top 12 birth-countries for players playing outside their country are:
SA - 137; NZ - 117; AUS - 63; ENG - 47; FIJ - 39; IRL - 29; TON - 27; WAL - 28; SCO - 25; ARG - 25; GEO - 24; SAM - 18; and France has just 6,SH birth countries include - Aus, Arg, Fiji, Namibia, NZ, SA, Samoa, Tonga, Zimbabwe, Tahiti, Trinidad & Tobago, Wallis & Fortuna, Uruguay, Colombia
NH birth countries include - Scot, Eng, Irl, Wal, Italy, Fra, Germany, USA, Canada, Netherlands, Georgia, Spain, Portugal, Monaco, St Lucia, Romania, Albania, Guinea, Russia, Nigeria, Hong Kong, Moldova, Cameroon, Burka Fasino, Ghana.
More specifically, the PRO14 which involves Ireland, Italy, Scotland & Wales has 727 players across 12 teams - average 61 players including their academies. Of those:
Home country-born - 551 - 76%
SH-born - 108 - 15%
NH-born - 68 - 9%In Ireland, there are 31 SH-born players which includes the likes of Carbery, with Irish parents who moved at 10, Niyi Adeolokun who moved from Nigeria at 9, and some with parents/grandparents such as Reidy, Bent, Bealham, etc. The split of 50 foreign-born players is NZ/SA/Eng 13 each, Aus 4, and ones from Fra, Spa, US, Can, Geo, etc who largely moved when they were kids with Irish parents in most cases.
As Billy Tell notes above the IRFU focus has largely shifted to using the Exiles branch in the UK and tracking already qualified Irish talent there and in France. Latest new cap, Will Addison, born in England, Irish mother, and had a break clause in his Sale contract, that if an opportunity arose with getting a contract in an Irish province, he could take it. It did and he did.
The numbers of SH-born players has been dropping in Ireland in the last 3 years. Yes of course, there are still some players who could residency qualify such as Jamison Gibson Park next July, assuming his Leinster contract is renewed, although Murray has now re-signed until 2021. Jean Kleyn, a SA lock at Munster is another, although there's at least 5 ahead of him in the queue. Lowe might or might not make it given his age and health issues - he wouldn't be available for selection until Six Nations 2021 - assuming he wants to renew/is offered contract in 2020. He's not a nominated project player and could get a better offer like Te'o did going to England. The others are standard club players - so far on performance anyway.
The remaining already capped foreign players contracts such as Fardy, Taute, van der Merwe finish next June and can't be renewed. Plus there'll be some likely retirements such as Tom McCartney in Connacht who's 34 next year. I reckon by season-end, there'll be less than five players who aren't Irish-qualified in Irish rugby. Assuming that others aren't hired in the meantime of course.
The IRFU announced today that it had sold some investment land property that will realise them at minimum $NZ45m and probably rising to $55/60m that gives IRFU "the opportunity to progress investment options which will, in addition to securing a new realisable asset, produce an additional, long term income stream to support further development of the domestic grass roots game on this island, in the decades to come. It is also envisaged that a portion of the proceeds will be provided for new club and playing facilities development programmes."
But I suppose that kind of financial long-term investment in the domestic game wouldn't fit with the 'scouring the world" angle that Gregor Paul decided to latch lazily onto.
Tl;dr . You poach .
Thanks Gregor
All good mate . Gregor Paul was poached from Scotland, could you take him off our hands too?
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On a bit of a tangent but he did wear the black jersey once. Zac cuts a very sympathetic figure, sounds like he is finding some peace so good on him
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12159180
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@hooroo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@canefan I guess we all knew but were hoping he would deal with it earlier.
Easy to say as bystander rather than person suffering, I do appreciate that.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink I guess. Better late than never
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@canefan said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@hooroo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@canefan I guess we all knew but were hoping he would deal with it earlier.
Easy to say as bystander rather than person suffering, I do appreciate that.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink I guess. Better late than never
Terrible analogy to use in this case....
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@kirwan said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@canefan said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@hooroo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@canefan I guess we all knew but were hoping he would deal with it earlier.
Easy to say as bystander rather than person suffering, I do appreciate that.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink I guess. Better late than never
Terrible analogy to use in this case....
Yeah, I did think that on typing. No pun intended this time
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@victor-meldrew said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@act-crusader said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
According to an unnamed source, the All Blacks will be best served with a 10, 12, 13 combination of Mo’unga, Crotty and Goodhue to gain advantage over the home team.
So no Charlie Ngatai then?
(I'll get my coat)
Too injury prone.
(Mine is the black one on the hook)
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