Springboks V All Blacks
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@westcoastie said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I'd like to see more discussion about whether the issues lay more with Aaron Smith than Beaudy.
I feel that when DC played, it was clear who was the on-field general tactics wise. Richie's team management is next level compared to Kieran Read.
I think when we talk about AB leadership and driving the team, maybe we have too many chiefs at the moment. Aaron Smith did some dumb shit in that last test - I reckon if he got back to giving Beaudy the ball quicker and letting the 10 drive things we'd be better off.There is a certain amount of truth to this, A Smith was poor in the first 50 minutes of Saturday. He wasn't helped by some of the worst ball presentation i have seen from an AB side in recent years. But that doesn't excuse some of the decision making, and the inaccuracy of the kicking.
But writing BB's issues off to the halfback is some serious whitewashing. A Smith wasn't at fault for the awful, awful kicking game; the stand and shovel passing game; or the distinct lack of run.
For a number of years, the forwards have been run by the 9, who then guns it to the 10 when he wants it.
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@mariner4life Tony Woodcock didn't. He looked like he was on his last legs at that tournament, but they'd stuck with him through thick and thin rather than bringing in a rookie Joe Moody.
They'd previously persisted on and on and on with Mealamu and Hore, pretty much beyond the bounds of common sense IMO. Eventually Coles came along, but Codie Taylor went to the RWC with 60 minutes of test rugby under his belt - basically because there was no alternative to Mealamu been developed.
Unfortunately Cruden got injured, so we never got to see the call that would have been made, but Danny Boy showed he was the man for the job.
There was a guy from the Waikato who was adamant all year that Cane should replace McCaw.
But, I'm not arguing so much about individuals as about Hansen's track record. Sure, he'll pick new people, but when in doubt, he goes with experience.
I think he learned a lesson in 2007, when he ended up with Leonard, McAlister and Toeava calling the shots!
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo As above, I reckon Beauden is locked in as the starting 10.
DMac vs Richie on the bench is more likely the call Hansen is considering.
I don't think that one is clear-cut - before last weekend, I think most people would have said the job was DMac's. Remember, he had a pretty good test starting at 10 vs. France and there were comments on here along the lines that he could clearly do things at 10 that Mo'unga couldn't.
And then a few weeks later, Beaudy scored four (actually five) tries vs Australia and the Beaudy vs Richie conversation was smothered by an industrial size feather pillow!
As a long standing member of the Fern I reserve the right to contradict the hell out of myself on a weekly basis.
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@chris-b my point was pretty tongue-in-cheek, because there were times in 2014-15 when a few of those guys looked cooked. And Woody absolutely had to go.
But the core premise to my pisstake remains. Experience only gets you so far when the calibre of those experienced players is less than the guys coming through.
And it would be a mistake to base your thinking on one game 12 years ago that was the result of a perfect storm of things going wrong.
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@sammyc said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@akan004 said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I think a telling indicator from the MoTM thread is Sam Whitelock has zero votes. In the absence of BBBR we have really needed him to stand up, but he has not risen to the occasion. Sam is a very very good lock, but jesus he's had a workload this year, the bloke looks like he needs a couple of months off.
Razor needs to start managing Sam's workload a bit better during Super Rugby. He plays him in virtually every game and usually for the entire 80 minutes, even when it's against weaker teams like the Sunwolves.
A quick google search tells me that Sam Whitelock was rested against the Sunwolves this year (not even on the bench).
Sometimes it's not always wise to trust the internet though.
After All, I'm skeptical there's hot teens in my neighbourhood who are dying to meet me.
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@mariner4life It's an interesting balancing act.
One thing is for certain - if we don't win RWC2019, Hansen will be a fucking moron who got the picks wrong!
But, I think he's repeatedly had it proven to him that backing his experienced players is mainly the way to go - until they fall off a cliff. Look how much rope Julian Savea got given.
Also have to take into consideration that a few weeks ago the conversation here was that Ben Smith was cooked. And a few weeks later, he's not.
I think Hansen will go for a bit of a blend of youth and experience - Goodhue and Lienert-Brown are definitely pushing the old midfielders quite hard. But those old guys only need to make a couple of big plays and they'll be back in the "how did we ever doubt them" camp.
I don't think Mo'unga is close to unseating Beaudy. I need to have another look at that line kick he made in the final couple of minutes to see whether it was balls of steel or a lucky bounce. Certainly, if it had been an unlucky bounce, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. I think there's a replay later this evening.
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
balls of steel or a lucky bounce
it was absolutely both. A leg break Warnie would be proud of.
If we are going to stick with these guys, then we need to find a way of using them that brings out more of their strengths, because it seems like we are underusing their talents at the moment.
Personally i blame Foster more than Hansen
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I agree that Richie won't unseat BB at 10, it's way too much of a change this close to the RWC. But I am definitely in the camp of having Richie over D-Mac on the bench. The thought of an injury meaning D-Mac had to play 70mins of a knock-out game against Ireland or (particularly) SA just terrifies me.
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@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I agree that Richie won't unseat BB at 10, it's way too much of a change this close to the RWC. But I am definitely in the camp of having Richie over D-Mac on the bench. The thought of an injury meaning D-Mac had to play 70mins of a knock-out game against Ireland or (particularly) SA just terrifies me.
the best performances by a 10 in an AB game over the pat two years are by RM and D-Mac, and yet BB gets the free ride...
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@mn5 said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@sammyc said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@akan004 said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I think a telling indicator from the MoTM thread is Sam Whitelock has zero votes. In the absence of BBBR we have really needed him to stand up, but he has not risen to the occasion. Sam is a very very good lock, but jesus he's had a workload this year, the bloke looks like he needs a couple of months off.
Razor needs to start managing Sam's workload a bit better during Super Rugby. He plays him in virtually every game and usually for the entire 80 minutes, even when it's against weaker teams like the Sunwolves.
A quick google search tells me that Sam Whitelock was rested against the Sunwolves this year (not even on the bench).
Sometimes it's not always wise to trust the internet though.
After All, I'm skeptical there's hot teens in my neighbourhood who are dying to meet me.
that's your best post ever.
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@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I agree that Richie won't unseat BB at 10, it's way too much of a change this close to the RWC. But I am definitely in the camp of having Richie over D-Mac on the bench. The thought of an injury meaning D-Mac had to play 70mins of a knock-out game against Ireland or (particularly) SA just terrifies me.
the best performances by a 10 in an AB game over the pat two years are by RM and D-Mac, and yet BB gets the free ride...
Two years ago the ABs demolished the Springboks 57 - 15 in Durban.
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@antipodean said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I agree that Richie won't unseat BB at 10, it's way too much of a change this close to the RWC. But I am definitely in the camp of having Richie over D-Mac on the bench. The thought of an injury meaning D-Mac had to play 70mins of a knock-out game against Ireland or (particularly) SA just terrifies me.
the best performances by a 10 in an AB game over the pat two years are by RM and D-Mac, and yet BB gets the free ride...
Two years ago the ABs demolished the Springboks 57 - 15 in Durban.
why you bring up old shit?
(to be honest i couldn't tell you a single thing that happened in a test last year)
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@voodoo RM is seen as a steady hand, but he has shown at super rugby and glimpses at International that he has the acceleration and gas as well as the all important 'x-factor' to be an effective impact player, he has also shown enough skill and courage under the high ball to be used at 15 at a pinch if required, for me it is a pure shoot out between him and D-Mac for that bench spot.
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@antipodean and yet last year was tight, this year was tight...that Durban result is more of an anomoly (more so when you look at the average diff in SA over the last 10 years is a bout 6 points including that)
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@antipodean said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I agree that Richie won't unseat BB at 10, it's way too much of a change this close to the RWC. But I am definitely in the camp of having Richie over D-Mac on the bench. The thought of an injury meaning D-Mac had to play 70mins of a knock-out game against Ireland or (particularly) SA just terrifies me.
the best performances by a 10 in an AB game over the pat two years are by RM and D-Mac, and yet BB gets the free ride...
Two years ago the ABs demolished the Springboks 57 - 15 in Durban.
and BB was therea t 57-0
also, the speed try he scored against Aus this year barred me up
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mariner4life said:
@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
balls of steel or a lucky bounce
it was absolutely both. A leg break Warnie would be proud of.
If we are going to stick with these guys, then we need to find a way of using them that brings out more of their strengths, because it seems like we are underusing their talents at the moment.
Personally i blame Foster more than Hansen
It’s only 2014, sorry I mean 2018...
After a phenomenal 2013, things got a little hairy in 2014. Not too dissimilar to the 2017 to 2018 transition.There were a few key changes in 2015 to personnel and tactics. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it again.
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@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I agree that Richie won't unseat BB at 10, it's way too much of a change this close to the RWC. But I am definitely in the camp of having Richie over D-Mac on the bench. The thought of an injury meaning D-Mac had to play 70mins of a knock-out game against Ireland or (particularly) SA just terrifies me.
the best performances by a 10 in an AB game over the pat two years are by RM and D-Mac, and yet BB gets the free ride...
I'm not sure I'd have D-Mac's performance rated that high, and I'd certainly have it offset by his numerous skittish displays. I just don't trust him at the helm in attack, and against the Boks in particular, don't rate his defense as high as BB (both front on or scrambling)
BB's faults are clear, and if we were 2 years out from the RWC then I could see the argument for Richie to be given a full run at it. It just feels like we are a bit too close. But fck knows, maybe the opportunity he got last week will be a catalyst for some increased minutes on the EOYT and by this time next year he'll be the incumbent.
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I don’t think Barrett is going to lose the starting 10 spot for the big tests. The question is whether they want him to play a full 80 at 10 (DMac on bench) or finish the game at fullback (Mo’unga on bench)
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Chris B. said:
@act-crusader If they're going down that path perhaps they should get Toddy Blackadder on the coaching staff?
No-one knows more about playing three first fives in a XV than Toddy - he might even have occasionally used four!
Carter, Tom Taylor and Slade. Can’t recall the other, unless of course you mean Dagg....
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@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
BB's faults are clear, and if we were 2 years out from the RWC then I could see the argument for Richie to be given a full run at it. It just feels like we are a bit too close. But fck knows, maybe the opportunity he got last week will be a catalyst for some increased minutes on the EOYT and by this time next year he'll be the incumbent.
Beauden's probably another who has played more minutes than are ideal. But, it would be a massive call (and out of character for Hansen) to switch him out for Mo'unga for the tests vs England and Ireland. And if Richie didn't come off, all you've achieved is to plant seeds of doubt in Beaudy's mind.
On the other hand, Sonny Bill's had bugger-all footy in the last six months - a couple of games for the Blues and three tests - one of which he hobbled off in and the others he was subbed early - as well as spending time in the bin in one of them.
2017 Rugby Championship - Wikipedia
