All Blacks v France Test #2
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So, which test do we judge the pack on? Last week, where they looked good, or this week, where they looked barely Super rugby standard?
My question marks over a number of those forwards were laid bare this weekend. S Barrett is too slow to be a mobile player, and not powerful enough to be a tight player. L Whitelock is safe, but slow and far from dynamic. Franks has cement tied to his feet (watch him trying to adjust on defense for the first bombed French try). Squire whacked that winger, then got hurt, but I've never been convinced.
Harris, Savea, and Fifita keep proving they are not good enough.
The big problem for us is, who else is there? My favourite lock in Super rugby at the moment is way too short. I think Taufua is too small (mass still plays its part). Who else turns up and stands out every week in Super Rugby?
What if Coles and Read never play again?
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I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
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@voltron said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@rocky-rockbottom
That’s a truly shit analysis.
What about McKenzie showing that he is a world class 10?
Won’t he long before he overtakes BarrettYou are taking the piss right? Thought McKenzie well and truly showed that hes not a first fives asshole.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
So, which test do we judge the pack on? Last week, where they looked good, or this week, where they looked barely Super rugby standard?
The one where the opposition tried.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
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@mariner4life I think there is truth in what he says.
Last week they raised the white flag after they got the YC, this week, they got a red, I expected them to wilt even worse, so I expect our team did the same, so just when they are supposed to be getting into their jobs, they mentally check out and fumble their way through the next 67 mins.
Not saying it is an excuse because these guys should be above this and be able to adjust and react, but I think it was one factor.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
I think it is you who isn't ready posts. Im saying the red card had a similar affect on intensity and performance that you see with an early blow out or playing a minnow. Players think the result is a forgone conclusion and play like shit.
I also said i think there are new guys that aren't up to it. Where is the "mealy mouthed bullshit" as you put it? -
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
I think it is you who isn't ready posts. Im saying the red card had a similar affect on intensity and performance that you see with an early blow out or playing a minnow. Players think the result is a forgone conclusion and play like shit.
I also said i think there are new guys that aren't up to it. Where is the "mealy mouthed bullshit" as you put it?I'm not willing to so easy write a terrible performance from what is supposed to be the world's best team because they "mentally clocked off" at the 12 minute mark, when we didn't even have a point on the board.
Especially when the opposition then stuck it to us up front for the next 68 minutes, and we did precisely zero to combat it.
The pack should have been buying the backs beers all night for bailing them out.
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@mariner4life forwards should never have to buy beers for the backs!
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life forwards should never have to buy beers for the backs!
ordinarily, i would completely agree. But on the weekend?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
I think it is you who isn't ready posts. Im saying the red card had a similar affect on intensity and performance that you see with an early blow out or playing a minnow. Players think the result is a forgone conclusion and play like shit.
I also said i think there are new guys that aren't up to it. Where is the "mealy mouthed bullshit" as you put it?I'm not willing to so easy write a terrible performance from what is supposed to be the world's best team because they "mentally clocked off" at the 12 minute mark, when we didn't even have a point on the board.
Especially when the opposition then stuck it to us up front for the next 68 minutes, and we did precisely zero to combat it.
The pack should have been buying the backs beers all night for bailing them out.
So what caused it? Why were the senior guys also shit if it wasn't what i originally pointed out? ie. Lack of match fitness, losing BB, emptying the bench and the card?
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@mariner4life maybe the backs could still buy them, and the forwards carry them back to the tables?
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
I think it is you who isn't ready posts. Im saying the red card had a similar affect on intensity and performance that you see with an early blow out or playing a minnow. Players think the result is a forgone conclusion and play like shit.
I also said i think there are new guys that aren't up to it. Where is the "mealy mouthed bullshit" as you put it?I'm not willing to so easy write a terrible performance from what is supposed to be the world's best team because they "mentally clocked off" at the 12 minute mark, when we didn't even have a point on the board.
Especially when the opposition then stuck it to us up front for the next 68 minutes, and we did precisely zero to combat it.
The pack should have been buying the backs beers all night for bailing them out.
So what caused it? Why were the senior guys also shit if it wasn't what i originally pointed out? ie. Lack of match fitness, losing BB, emptying the bench and the card?
A lack of grunt from 2 guys who played the whole game, and 2 guys who came off the bench. 1 stalwart being very slow around the track, and one who hasn't had enough rugby. Fuck knows what Sam Cane and Sam Whitelock's issue was, two proven performers with good form in 2018 well below their usual standard (did you see the sequence in the first half where S Whitelock was making a menace of himself at a ruck, and the French guy was laughing at him?). C Taylor was good, although not helping at the ruck when he's stuck out wide.
To be honest, i am more worried by your excuses than mine. A lack of talent and ability i can live with. That's what we've got, then lets use it the best way we can.
But to be so mentally weak that they can clock off before the job is even started, let alone done, and then never switch back on, including the guys who are supposed to come on and lift the side? That's a significant worry throughout the side, and speaks to a chasm of missing leadership. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life maybe the backs could still buy them, and the forwards carry them back to the tables?
if it's Luke Whitelock doing the carrying, then they are going to take an age to get back from the bar
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pakman Moody is worrying. What has happened to his form? In general play he's nearly as bad as Franks.
TBH, it's worrying how bad Franks has got in general play, he's never been great but now he's terrible, he's just there for scrummaging now.
It will be interesting to see how much our pack transforms when BBBR is back though.
Have to remember that Moody and Franks (and Squire) have hardly played at all this year. Between the three of them they've probably had about five hours of Super rugby in total. Similarly, Sam Cane was out for nearly a month before the tests. Not surprising that they're undercooked.
On the other hand, Taylor, the Whitelocks and Barrett have carried pretty heavy loads - Foster was saying the boys were more tired coming into camp than he'd ever seen them.
Not really surprising that they would have gone into this match expecting they were going to win and had that reinforced very early on with the sending off. Heads not quite in the space to deliver a lethal performance and you end up with a shit performance.
On the loose forwards - Sam Cane had a four year AB apprenticeship under McCaw, before he got the top job. Squire, Fifita, Whitelock etc haven't had that luxury, so it's not really surprising that they're not immediately the reincarnations of Kaino and Read.
The guys being groomed for the takeover were probably people like Vito and Luatua, but they've fucked off to take the cash - so blame them for being greedy fuckers or Hansen for failing to manage them properly - or maybe both!
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@mariner4life least it won't be Brad Shields!
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
The guys being groomed for the takeover were probably people like Vito and Luatua, but they've fucked off to take the cash - so blame them for being greedy fuckers or Hansen for failing to manage them properly - or maybe both!
Not sure Vito has a grudge there, he got given a heap of goes, but Jerome and Read rarely got injured then.
Not sure Luatua was groomed for anything given his selection history. Steve Hanson hates loose forwards from the Blues. Hates 'em
