All Blacks v France Test #1
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Disciplinary update: New Zealand v France, 9 June
Ofa Tu’ungafasi (New Zealand) has received a Citing Commissioner Warning from independent Citing Commissioner Freek Burger (South Africa) for a breach of Law 9.13 during the 59th minute of the New Zealand versus France match at Eden Park on Saturday 9 June. Having reviewed all available camera angles, the Citing Commissioner considered Ofa Tu’ungafasi to have executed a dangerous tackle “just short of” red card level (in accordance with World Rugby Regulation 17), which caused injury to France winger Remy Grosso. In considering the mechanics of the incident, the Citing Commissioner determined that there were mitigating factors which prevented the conduct from reaching the red card level in his opinion. These included Remy Grosso’s body position lowering as he went into contact with Sam Cane, who effected the tackle initially, immediately before Ofa Tu’ungafasi joined a dynamic tackle situation. As a result, the independent Citing Commissioner issued a Citing Commissioner Warning – issued for acts of foul play that are viewed by the Citing Commissioner to come close to but do not warrant the player receiving a red card. In respect of the tackle by Sam Cane, the Citing Commissioner agreed with the on-field action taken by the referee to issue a penalty against him, and therefore no further action was warranted in relation to Sam Cane. -
@stargazer That statement is like a red rag to a bull. The twitter idiots are going to be foaming at the mouth over that.
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@stargazer what a crock, so on Sunday neither deemed to require citing, but as usually, Social media forces WR to do something, even if nothing, but ends up with this farking joke of a statement.
There are processes in place for a reason, if the process is broken, fix that, don't bend the rules to suit when it suits.
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@taniwharugby Legally speaking, the decision is not sound, and badly worded. They shouldn't speak in terms of mitigating factors when assessing whether it was yellow or red (mitigating factors only come into play when determining a sanction).
They basically say now that without the downward movement from Grosso, it would have been a red card, which is weird considering Tu'ungafasi bent at the waist and tackled low.
The assessment should have been in terms of reckless or accidental. Of course, that downward movement should always lead to a conclusion that it was accidental. However, if you look at Tu'ungafasi's body position, there was nothing to suggest he was reckless even without the downward movement. After all, if there hadn't been a downward movement, Tu'ungafasi would have hit Grosso in the chest, not head.
So it wasn't even close to red.
Ah well, at least Ofa can still play on Saturday.
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What is the problem with that statement exactly? For me it provides clarity for why he wasn't cited.
He hit him square in the face with his shoulder so there was always going to be a "case" to answer.
Im happy for them to take the mitigating circumstances into consideration before citing rather than waiting for expensive lawyers to do it in the judiciary. -
Citing Commissioner Explanations are a good thing, and they should be a regular part of the process.
and if such a thing as a "Citing Commissioner Warning" is a real thing .... - for high end yellows, or whatever, then they'd be released as part of the Citing Commissioner Explanations.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
What is the problem with that statement exactly? For me it provides clarity for why he wasn't cited.
He hit him square in the face with his shoulder so there was always going to be a "case" to answer.
Im happy for them to take the mitigating circumstances into consideration before citing rather than waiting for expensive lawyers to do it in the judiciary.No, that is legally incorrect. There is no case to answer (in terms of citings) if it is accidental.
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@rapido said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
Citing Commissioner Explanations are a good thing, and they should be a regular part of the process.
and if such a thing as a "Citing Commissioner Warning" is a real thing .... - for high end yellows, or whatever, then they'd be released as part of the Citing Commissioner Explanations.
Lol, of course CC warnings are a real thing. They go on a player's record. If Ofa gets two more yellows or CC warnings, he will still get his appointment with the judiciairy and the judiciairy will then consider Ofa's tackle on Grosso and determine a sanction. Hopefully, the Judicial Commission (or whatever it is called) won't take the opportunity to slap him with an undeserved ban if that happens.
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@pukunui when else do we hear Citing Commissioner statements on why they didn't cite someone, that is the issue here.
Not the issuing of a statement, in fact transperancy and better clarity would be better, but in this instance it appears WR have forced the statement to show they propery assessed this 'assault' by 2 NZers.
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Classic case of complaint based on outcome rather than actual action.
To me Cane's swinging arm was borderline yellow. I don't think one can validly say Ofa made a tackle which he should have known would make head contact. It was the deflection off the Cane tackle which caused this.
As an aside, double tackles are especially prone to this owing to the ricochet effect. -
@taniwharugby Citing Commissioner warnings are always published. However, the media are usually ignoring them, so nobody knows about them.
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@stargazer so was this warning issued at the close of the citing period, or following pressure from WR?
Was this warning issued in the same time frame as all the others?
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@taniwharugby The warning was published yesterday.
The citing period was between 12 and 48 hours (I think this depends on rules that have been agreed upon for this specific tour).
Regulation 17.15.9 Initial Procedures – Citing Commissioner Warning (a) A Citing Commissioner Warning shall be notified to the nominated officer of the Host Union or the Tournament Organiser in which the incident occurred within ordinarily a minimum 12 hours and a maximum of 48 hours of the conclusion of the relevant Match.So the citing period finished Monday evening at the latest. However, players who have received a warning have the right to challenge the warning and have to do so within a period of 48 hours after receiving the notification of the warning (Reg 17.25.3.c. The challenge itself will only be considered when he has to appear before the Disciplinary Committee or Officer after having received 3 CC warnings or a combination of three warnings and YCs during the series.)
That 48-hour period ended Wednesday evening at the latest (we don't know when exactly NZR/Tu'ungafasi received the notification of the warning).
I would find it odd if they had published the warning before the 48-hour "challenge period" had ended, unless they had been notified by NZR that they would not appeal. We don't know the exact details, so we don't know whether NZR has even considered challenging the warning or whether they sent any message to WR that they would not appeal. So based on that, the time of publication isn't particularly late.
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@stargazer fair enough, but I guess the question is, had he been issued the warning after the commissioner felt it didn't meet RC threshold or was this a retroactive type thing in response to WR?
Happy if it is all due process, and TBF, I think maybe when they list those cited each week, maybe those with warnings too, I know as you say above, they are published, but I didn't even know they issued warnings in this way and I think I follow rugby pretty closely.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
Classic case of complaint based on outcome rather than actual action.
To me Cane's swinging arm was borderline yellow. I don't think one can validly say Ofa made a tackle which he should have known would make head contact. It was the deflection off the Cane tackle which caused this.
As an aside, double tackles are especially prone to this owing to the ricochet effect.I watched Saracens playing someone a while ago and the scenario was almost identical. Brad Barritt belted someone (tackle was slightly worse than Cane's) and then a prop pretty much did what Ofa did. I'm pretty sure Barritt escaped any card or sanction and the prop was red carded (think it was his 50th too).
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@taniwharugby They don't issue warnings often, but there have been a few CC warnings during SR as well this season, including one to Richie Mo'unga for - I think - an early tackle in the game against the Stormers, just before he broke his jaw. Ruan Botha, Taniela Tupou and Matt Lucas have also received warnings this season. There has also been a CC warning during the JWC to an Argentinian player.
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
@rocky-rockbottom said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
@no-quarter said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
We share the duties around. I come down hard on anyone that misspeaks about Jordie. @Rancid-Schnitzel has Beauden covered, and we've recruited @Stargazer to white knight Scott as he plays for the Crusaders at the moment.
Highly Informative post. Too dense to really pick up on the white knighting, apart of course from the blazing obvious examples:
Nepia: Piri Weepu
Stagrazer: all cantabsnow got me wondering how far someone could go, white knighting the indefensible, what i'm trying to ask is is there such a thing as a white knight for Michael Collins?
White knight, more like black unicorn.
I don't think I white knighted Piri more than other players - of course, I was just upset that everyone fat shamed him, the poor big boned fulla.
I probably white knight Akira a bit now, or more accurately reverse white knight the Tongan Frizell
.Is anyone keen to try his pork sammies this weekend?
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France Test #1:
What a weird system, according to the Commission Ofa didn't commit a red card offence yet he is given a warning that can contribute to actual yellow and red card offences in the future?
Basically it's an off-field yellow card.
